2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02126.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 1.1 MB

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From: [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman For President...
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[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

> [alt.alien.visitors]
> In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >
> >Gee, maybe the government or the greys took his modem away.

> Gary, if you'd like to help take back control from the government, I'm
> running for president (see alt.politics.kibo.)  Would you like to be my
> running mate?  (I asked Mike Jittlov, but he seems to be busy.  You're
> every bit as energetic, and I see energy as the prime quality necessary
> to properly confuse the media.)

>                             -- Kibo

Hey!  I thought that Sy Sperling was going to be your running mate!?
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From: [e-mail](C Squared)
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman For President...
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride) writes:
>[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>
>> [alt.alien.visitors]
>> In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>> >
>> >Gee, maybe the government or the greys took his modem away.
>
>> Gary, if you'd like to help take back control from the government, I'm
>> running for president (see alt.politics.kibo.)  Would you like to be my
>> running mate?  (I asked Mike Jittlov, but he seems to be busy.  You're
>> every bit as energetic, and I see energy as the prime quality necessary
>> to properly confuse the media.)
>
>>                             -- Kibo
>
>Hey!  I thought that Sy Sperling was going to be your running mate!?

Gawd! you're WAY behind.  Get with the program.  Just cuz your wife has a baby
you think you can slip a little?  Jeez.

C Squared

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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: John Lear info from Matrix (long)
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Here is a document I OCR'ed out of Matrix to give you a sampling of
what it and Leading Edge is like. This information may have been
loaded up here in the past, I don't know. I have seen this statement
in two different publications, and I am taking the liberty of assuming
that John won't mind his personal views repeated for others to
consider. So with that in mind, please do consider what he says here
with and open mind, and do your own research to either confirm or
denige these ideas.

A brief bio:
In addition to the canned bio that follows, I have these few comments:
Until four years ago, John had no interest in UFO's. It seemed "way out"
to him. Then he talked to a friend who had witnessed an alien meeting
with officers at Brentwaters. Saucers lands, aliens, everything.

Lear has former associates with CIA. He used to fly for them; he has
first hand info about October Surprise in fact, and supports most of
the allegations made regarding the Reagan  campain in those days.

His CIA ties, eh claims, have admitted to him the US government cover-up
of UFO information, and the fact that they have several recovered disks
in thier possession, some of which go back as far as WWII.

Jeff-

And hear's John...

JOHN LEAR

The following statement is a 'working hypothesis written by John Lear on
December 29, 1987 and revised on January 14 and again in March. This
revision is dated August 25, 1 9 88 .

John Lear is a Lockheed L-1011 captain for a major US airline and has flown
over 160 different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries. He holds
17 world speed records in the Lear Jet and is the only pilot ever to hold every
airman certificate Issued by the Federal Aviation Administration. Mr. Lear has
flown missions worldwide for the CIA and other government agencies. A former
Nevada State Senator candidate, he is the son of William P. Lear, designer of
the Lear Jet, the 8-track stereo and founder of Lear Siegler Corp. Lear
became interested in UFO's in the summer of 1986 after talking with United
States Air Force personnel who had witnessed a UFO landing at Bentwaters AFB,
near London, England, and three small aliens walking up to Wing Commander
Gen. Gordon Williams.

August 25, 1988

THE UFO COVER-UP
by
John Lear

The sun does not revolve around the earth.
The United States government has been in business with little gray exra
terrestrials for about 20 years.

The first truth stated hero got Giordano Bruno burned at the stake in 1600
for daring to propose that it was real. The second truth has gotten far more
people killed trying to state it publicly than will ever be known.

But the truth must be told. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun was
successfully suppressed by the church for over 200 years. It eventually caused
major upheaval in the church, government and thought. A realignment of social
and traditional values. That was in the 1800's.

Now, about 400 years after the first truth ~ s pronounced we must again face
the shocking facts. The horrible truth; the government has been hiding from
us over 40 years. Unfortunately "the horrible truth" is far more horrible than
the
government ever imagined.

in its effort to protect democracy our government sold us to the aliens. And
here is how it happened. But before I begin I'd like to offer a word in the
defense
of those who bargained us away. They had the best of intentions .

Germany may have recovered a flying saucer in 1939 . General James H.
Doolittle went to Sweden in 1946 to investigate report of 'ghost rockets'
UFO's 1000's of which had been sighted over a 7 month period.

The "horrible truth was known by only a very few persons.  they were indeed
ugly little creatures, Shaped like praying mantises and who were more
advanced than us by perhaps as much as a billion years. Of the original group
that were
the first to learn "the horrible truth" several committed suicide, the most
prominent of which was Defense secretary James V. Forrestal who jumped to his
death
from a 16th story hospltal wlndow . Secy. Forrestal's medical records are
sealed
to this day.

President Truman qulckly put a lld on the secret and turned the screws so tight
that the general public still think that flying saucers are a joke. Have- I
ever
got a surprise for them.

In 1947 President Truman established a group of 12 top military and scientific
personnel of their time . They were known as MJ-12 . Although the group exists
today, none of the original members are still alive. The last one to die was
Gordon Gray, former Secretary of the Army, in l984. As each member passed
away, the group itself appointed a new member to fill the position. There is
some speculation that the group known ~s MJ-12 expanded to at least several
more members.

There were several more saucer crashes in the late 1940's, one l.. Roswell, Now
Mexico, one lnAztec, New Mexico and one near Loredo, Texas, about 30 miles
inside the Mexican border.

Consider if you will the position of the United States government at that tame.
They proudly thought of themselves the most powerful nation on earth having
recently produced the atomic bomb, an achievement so stupendous that lt. would
take Russians 4 years to catch up and only with the help traitors to democracy.
They had built a jet aircraft that had exceeded the speed of sound in flight.
They
had bullet jet bombers with intercontinental range that could carry weapons of
enormous destruction. The cold war ~ had brought economic prosperity and
the future- seemed bright. Now imagine what lt. was like for those men. Orson
Wells radio broadcast of The
War of the Worlds" in 1938. Thousands of Americans panicked at a realistically
presented invasion of earth of beings from another planet. Imagine their horror
as they actually viewed the dead bodies of those frightening looking little
creatures with enormous eyes, reptilian skin and claw like fingers. Imagine
their shock as they attempted to determine how these strange saucers were
powered and could discover no part even remotely similar to components they
were familiar with no cylinders or pistons, no vacuum tubes or turbines,
The stories are legendary on transporting crashed saucers over long distances,
moving only at night, purchasing complete farms, slashing through forests,
blocking major highways, sometimes driving 2 and 3 lo-boys in tandem with
an extraterrestrial load a hundred feet in diameter

On April 25, 1964, the first official communication between these aliens and
the
U S Government took place at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico
3 saucers landed ~t ~ pre-arranged area and a meeting was held between the
aliens and intelligence officers of the U S Government

During the late 60's or early 70's MJ-12 representing the U.S. Government
made a deal with those creatures called EBE's (extra-terrestrial biological
entities,
named by Detley Bronk,origlnal MJ-12 member and 6th president of Johns Hopklns
University) The 'deal' was that in exchange for 'technology' that they would
provide to us we agreed to 'ignore' the abductions that were going on and
suppress
information on the cattle mutilations The EBE's assured MJ-12 that the
abductions
(usually lasting about 2 hours) were merely the ongoing monitoring of
developing
civilizations

In fact, the purposes for the abductions turned out to b-

(1) Insertion of 3 mm spherical device through the nasal cavity of
the abductee into the brain. The device is used for the biological
monitoring, tracking and control of the abductee.
(2) Implementation of post hypnotic suggestion to carry out a specific
activity during a specific tame period, the actuation of which
wall occur within the next 2 to 5 years

(3) Termination of some people so that they could function as living
sources for biological material and substances

(4) Termination of individuals who represent a threat to the continuation
of their activity.

(5) Effect genetic engineering experiments.

(6) Impregnation of human females and early termination of pregnancies
to procure the crossbred infant.

The U.S. Government was not aware of the far reaching consequences
of their deal. They were lead to believe that the abductions were essentially
benign and since they figured the abductions would probably go on anyway
whether or not they agreed, they merely insisted that a current list of
abductees
be submitted, on a periodic basis to MJ-12 and the National Security Council.
Does this sound incredible ? An actual list of abductions to the National
Security Council? Reed on, because I have news for you

The EBE's have a genetic disorder in that their digestive system is atrophied
and not functional Some speculate that they were involved in some type of
accident or nuclear war, or possibly on the back side of an evolutionary
genetic
curve. In order to sustain themselves they use an enzyme or hormonal secretion
obtained from the tissue that they extract from humans and animals. (Note: cows
and humans are genetically similar. In the event of a national disaster cow
hemoglobin
can be used by humans.)

The secretions obtained are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and applied on
the skin by spreading or dipping part of their bodies in the solution. The body
absorbs the solution then excretes the waste back through the skin. The cattle
mutilations that were prevalent throughout the period from 1973 to 1983 and
publicly noted through newspaper and magazine stories and included a
documentary
produced by Linda Howe for the Denver CBS affiliate , were for the
collection of those tissues by the aliens. The mutilations included genitals
taken, rectums cored out to the colon, eyes, tongue and throat all surgically
removed with extreme precision. In some cases the incisions were made by
cutting between the cells, a process we are not yet capable of performing in
the
field. In many of the mutilations there was no blood found at all in the
carcass,
yet there was no vascular collapse of the internal organs. This has been also
noted in the human mutilations, one of which was Sgt. Jonathan
P. Louotte at the White Sands Missile Test Range in 1956 who was found three
days after on Air Force Major had witnessed his abduction by a 'disk shaped'
object at 0300 while on a search for missile debris downrange. His genitals
had been removed, rectum cored out in a surgically precise 'plug' up to the
colon, eyes removed and all blood removed with again, no vascular collapse.
From some of the evidence lt. is apparent that this surgery is accomplished in
most cases while the victim, animal or human is still alive.

The various parts of the body are taken to various underground laboratories
one of which is known to be near the small New Mexico town of Dulce.
This jointly occupied (CIA-alien) facility has been described as enormous
with huge tiled walls that 'go on forever'. Witnesses have reported huge
vats filled with an amber liquid with parts of human bodies being stirred
inside.

After the initial agreement, Groom Lake, one of this nation's most secret test
centers,was closed for a period of about a year sometime between 1972 and
1974, and a huge underground facility constructed for and with the help of the
EBE's. The bargained for technology was set in place but could only be operated
by the EBE's themselves. Needless to say, the advanced technology could not
be used against the EBE's themselves in case of need.

During the period between 1979 and 1983 lt. became increasingly obvious to
MJ-12
that things were not going as planned. It became known that many more people
in the thousands) were being abducted than were listed on the official
abduction
lists. In addition it became obvious that some, not all, but some of the
nations
missing children had been used for secretions and other parts required by the
aliens.

According to some, there was an altercation between the U.S. military and the
aliens at the Dulce laboratory. A special armed forces unit was called in to
try
and free a number of our people trapped in the facility who had become aware of
what was really going on. According to one source 66 of the soldiers were
killed
in the effort and our people were not freed.

By 1983, MJ-12 must have been in stark terror at the mistake they had made in
dealing with the EBE's. They had subtly influenced through Dr. Hynek, formerly
with the Blue Book project, who had allegedly broken ties with the Air Force in
the late 60's but who in reality continued to be their informant in his cover
capacity
of Director of the Center for UFO Studies) "Close Encounters of the Third kind"
and "E.T." (now admitted by some members of MJ-12 to have been a 'drastic
mistake')
to get the public used to "odd looking" aliens that were compassionate,
benevolhe other part (and majority) of MJ-12 argued that there was
no
way they could do that, that the situation was untenable and there was no use
in
exciting the public with the 'horrible truth' and that the best plan was to
continue
the development of a weaaliens on earth over the next 20 years to be culminated with several
documentaries
to be released during the 1985-1987 period of tame. These documentaries would
explain the history and intentions of the EBE's . The discovery of the "Grand
Deception" put the entire plans, hopes and dreams of MJ-12 into utter confusion
and panic.

Meeting at the "Country Club", ~ remote lodge with private golf course,
comfort-
able sleeping and working quarters and its own private airstrip bullet by and
ex-
exclusively for the members of MJ-12, lt. was a factional fight of what to do
now.
Part of MJ-12, which had now become military top-heavy, wanted to confess the
whole

scheme and shambles lt. had become to the public, beg their forgiveness and ask
for their support. The other part (and majority) of MJ-12 argued that there was
no
way they could do that, that the situation was untenable and there was no use
in
exciting the public with the 'horrible truth' and that the best plan was to
continue
the development of a weaDiscovery. I thought that was interesting.

I would like to briefly talk about Bill Cooper. George Knapp did a
very brutal 20 minutes about Cooper. There are a number of things that
are very suspicious about Bill, but I would like to tell you that I
believe that Bill Cooper did have access to information in 1973 when
he was in the Navy, and that the information did include some
information about some of the dealings with the aliens. It was my
understanding when I first met Bill, that when he was stationed at
Pearl Harbor he had the key to a classified area. He would go in there
at night and read some of these briefings. That's what he told me.
Later on, he started saying that he was part of an intelligence
briefing team. I don't think he was; at least that's not what he told
, AIDS was developed by the
Navy in 19l2. The specific doctor that developed it was a doctor by
the name of R.M. Donner. The initial AIDS research was financed by
Congress. July 1, 1969 is when they had the hearings. This is a
copy of the DOD appropriationn in 1973, but not as
much as he would like you to believe he did. You can take that for
what it 's worth. He has done some very strange things. He has threatened
me on at least four occasions. He thinks that I'm with the agency
and involved in disinformation, so that's his deal.

The other day, a guy came up to my house who was out in the forest
with Charles Halt the very first night of the Bentwaters incident
that something landed. There was a rectangular object that landed, and
he actually jumped on top of it. He said he could look down inside the
object . He has never made any public statement at all . I never thought
that I would ever get to meet him. He did in fact confirm that the
incident did in fact happen.

As far as an update on AIDS is concerned, AIDS was developed by the
Navy in 19l2. The specific doctor that developed it was a doctor by
the name of R.M. Donner. The initial AIDS research was financed by
Congress. July 1, 1969 is when they had the hearings. This is a
copy of the DOD appropriation
The other day I was over Bob Lazar's house and we were looking through
a classified book on nuclear bomb technology up until 1960, and we
were discussing how many bombs have been exp1oded in space. Up until
1960 there were at least four. The first one was in August 1958 and
was called TEAK. It was A hydrogen bomb exploded 252,000 feet over
Johnston Island. What's interesting about this is that I don't think

we had that kind of capability" in those days of launching things
like that. I took out my Jane's "All the Worlds Spacecraft And went
back and found out that after Sputnik was launched we had ( as far
as the public was concerned) quite an effort to get something up there
ourselves. that Was the Redstone and Vanguard rockets. It turns out
that the first launch was successful but every one after that failed.
We just couldn't get anything off the ground. All that stuff was just
a ruse, because a year later we were launching hydrogen bombs over
Johnston Island that weighed two tons. The public was told that we
couldn't even get a three pound object into space. Apparently there
was a classified launch facility in the Pacific.

With regard to the South African incident, it appears that it was a
hoax perpetrated by James Van Gruenen, who has A history of hoaxes. We
don't know what the final outcome was. Van Gruenen even offered one
producer a chance to meet an alien from the Space Council. This
producer contacted me and I told him to check Van Gruenen's
background.

I got a call from Linda Howe a couple days ago, and she told me that
there WAS A discussion by VP Quayle about reorienting the SDI toward
shooting down an incoming asteroid and that it was in a paper. She's
supposed to send me the article. What is interesting is that we've
heard this story for the last two or three years About an incoming
asteroid. It's obviously under intelligent control, it's putting out
radio emissions. Supposedly it's on the edge of the solar system now,
heading this way. I have at least three confirmations that it does
exist. The code name is supposedly Wormwood. One of the confirmations
came from a friend of s guy in the CIA. They were out one night and
the CIA guy was drinking heavily And was very depressed. His friend
asked him what the matter was, asking "is it the thing that is coming
in from space?. The agency guy dropped his glass and said, how do
you know about that?. That's one of them. If we are reorienting SDI
in that way, that opens a lot of questions about what is going on.




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Subject: Re: Public Opinion Poll.
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|> I think the public is a good thing.
Some of my best friends are of the public persuasion.  But that doesn't
mean I want my baby sister to marry one!
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Date: 14 Aug 92 09:33:36 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

    Dear Astral Folk and Rock Watchers: Remember today is the fourth weekly
    Astral OOBE Party. Pack your astral bags and don't be late.

I have a previous committment but my rock can come.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     All of a sudden, I want to THROW OVER my promising ACTING
 |warren@      CAREER, grow a LONG BLACK BEARD and wear a BASEBALL HAT!!
/ nysernet.org
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From: [e-mail]
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Subject: Re: Hatton: CIA or ET
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Dear Thinkers: Hatton according to you people must be a pretty bad dude.
It's too bad I didn't know that when I read his material. I am farmiliar
with ASSK and have studied most of their material. I think more of Sister
Thedra the person who does their channeling than anyone on Earth. It seems
this happens over and over again. A person like J.C. comes along and
people start an organization to further his teaching and they wind up
killing people who don't become members of that group. It happened with
the person that started the I AM Group and also L. Ron Hubbard. I recently
tried to get permission to post some information from Dr. Doreal (now dead)
about Mt. Shasta. The people don't want the world to hear about it they want
to control it themselves and sell it for money. John Winston.
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Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
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Dear Moon Watchers:  I have been watching the postings and it may have
been me that put the original material on the net about lights on the
moon. My teacher and Guru had a hillbilly friend that wore overalls from
Missouri by the name of Buck Nelson. Merele (my teacher) would let Buck
stay with him over in Oakland, Calif.  when he would come out and speak
for certain UFO club groups in the UFO clubs in the 1950s. Buck had a
farm and once some people in a space craft came by and wanted to get
some water from his pond. He let them have the water and they gave him
quite a few rides. During some of these trips he would have a tingling
sensation in his body for quite a while as they would change his body
so that he could withstand the condition on other places.---JW.
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Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
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---One of the places that Buck was taken was a ten mile long bridge
on the Moon. There is a crater near Mare Crisium and Mare Illium that
can be seen by telescope best during the first 3 days of a new moon.
At this time the shadows are just right so the bridge can be seen
using a refractor type telescope using from 60 to 120 power. Many
people like to mine rock from the moon because it has not broken down
into gravel and soil as it has on most other planets. This bridge covers
a crater 10 miles across and the people doing the mining use vehicles
that hover about 3 feet or less off the ground, so it is better for them
to go over the bridge to get from one side to the  other. A shift of work
is about 3 hours.  That is why the lights come on and then off. John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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[e-mail] writes:

: It seems that these fish become invisible when scared then turn to
: where you can see them in about 20 mlnutes if undisturbed. They sell
: for over $20,000 per pair.  John Winston.

Hey John, I've got an even better deal:  Fish that you can't see, feel,
hear, smell, taste, or in any way detect.  And they are only $10 per
dozen.  I am currently taking orders.  No COD or credit cards orders
accepted.  Send check, cash or money order to:

    Undectable Fish Offer
    11632 Monroe St. NE
    Blaine, MN 55434

Shipment guaranteed within 7 days of receipt of order.  If you aren't
satisfied, send the fish back, and I'll return your money -- of course
you'll have a hell of a time convincing me that you _did_ send the
fish back.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  DIDI...  is that a
Rosemount Inc.                                |MARTIAN name, or, are we in
                                              |ISRAEL?
[e-mail]                 |
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 04:56:31 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Big Al: I'll give it some thought about your suggestiion about send
ng
>you the picture. Maybe Don Showen or Jeff can help me in that project.
>Lynlee also helps me to operate. Like I say I can use all the
>help I can get. Now new subject. I need to look up a story I read a few
>years back. It talks about a person catching some fish in the ocean off
>the coast of Africa around some named islands. These fish were about the

>size and looke like a guppy. When he got the fish into his small
>net he could feel the fish jumping but couldn't see them. It
>seems that these fish become invisible when scared then turn to where yo

>can see them in about 20 mlnutes if undisturbed. They sell for over $20,
00
>per pair.  John Winston.

All right, let's do it up.  About the fish, was the dude fishing at night
or in the daytime?

Big Al.  Yes, actually it does make a difference.
A
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8494 alt.politics.kibo:88
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.politics.kibo
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman For President...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Between a rock and a type specimen sheet, Boston.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 04:45:54 GMT
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride) writes:
>Hey!  I thought that Sy Sperling was going to be your running mate!?

Well, see, the Constitution says you have to be a natural-born citizen
of the USA to be President.  Sy Sperling is artificial from the scalp up.

                                -- K.

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8495 alt.conspiracy:17745
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INVASION!!!
Summary: the long and short of it...
Keywords: aliens, invasion, stollman
Message-ID: <vb8mbs=[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 92 05:41:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 195


I am sitting here logged on to my new account that I opened with netcom,
trying to think of something to write...I got this account because it is a
real bargain, $20 a month with NO hourly fees and a local LA number I can
call so I can compose online without having to use up time on my
pc-pursuit account...When I get back to Florida in a few weeks, I will be
able to have access to the entire Internet for only $50-$100 a month,
depending on how much time I use up...90 hours a month in long-distance
calls for $30 a month is a real steal!!

I guess I would like to divulge more details on what I have been
through...When I was taken by my clone parents during one episode to a
small mental hospital in Alhambra, Calif. in 1984, I refused to go in...My
fake dad went in while my fake mom stood outside and watched
me...Suddenly, loud explosion sounds came from the inside of the
building...After a few minutes, I went inside to find my clone dad signing
admission forms for ME...That is illegal and my real parents would know
it, and would never have done it in the first place...If I had been smart,
I would have ran away from them, but I couldn't rationalize things out
well with knowing that my real parents were either in some kind of
CIA/alien prison camp or possibly even another dimension...So I signed my
own papers and entered the hospital voluntarily...In Calif., if you sign
yourself into a mental hospital, you can sign yourself out just as easily...

The first thing that happened was that the $600 I had on me, which I had
brought with me from Tally was taken from me by one of the
"employees"...He told me he would put it in the safe, but it wasn't till I
got out a week later that I found out he had given it to my "mom"...He put
three dollars in my wallet, and told me not to loan my money to other
patients, like there was something special about those dollars, and there
was...The 3 dollars had been given to me by whom I believe to be angels,
trying to save my neck, and they had some kind of godlike power to
them...The first one was given to me by a worker at the FSU clinic, when I
went there for some tests...When I went to get my medicine from the
pharmacy, a lady took the prescription from me ahead of the pharmacist,
like she was being overly helpful...Then when I paid for the medicine, she
took the receipt from the normal guy, and walked around the pharmacy,
eyeing me all the time and the others "working" there...When nobody was
looking she ran over to me fast, and handed me the receipt, along with a
dollar bill, which she thrust into my hand, clenching both of her hands
around mine...I was surprised, because the change was only like 38 cents,
but she said, "Don't worry about it," and stamped my receipt real hard
with a message that said, "Only copy you will receive!"...I got the
impression that people had died to get that dollar bill into my hands, and
I learned why...

Later that day, it started raining real hard (not very unusual for
Tallahassee), and I had the dollar in the secret compartment in my
wallet...I merely wished to myself that the rain would stop, and lo and
behold, a minute or so later the clouds cleared up, and the rain
stopped...When I say cleared up, I mean I had never seen it happen so fast
in my whole life...One minute the sky was dark black, and the next it was
sunny...I didn't believe in miracles at the time, so I took the dollar out
of my wallet and spent it...It was then that I learned how desperately the
angels or whoever they are were trying to save my ass...

I took a cab home from a walk around town one day, and the cab driver
acted like a real goofball...When I say acted, I mean acting...Because
when we got to my apartment building, I handed him a ten, and I owed him
about four dollars with the tip...He suddenly turned around quick as a
rabbit, and thrust 3 dollars into my hand...I got out, and started walking
to the stairs...Suddenly, I heard a loud bang, and the cab slid over to
the side of the parking lot and ran up against the curb, as if nobody was
driving it...The "driver", a copy of the real one who had taken the space
of the driver in the cab, teleported and exhanged with him, was searching
frantically through the drivers money bag and the cab...I was terrified
and ran upstairs into my apartment and locked the door...When I wound up
in the little mental hospital I am speaking about, those were the three
dollars I am telling of...

I was placed into a room with a wierd guy, a heavy-metal freak...I hadn't
slept for about a week or so, so I laid down on the bed...The guy asked me
if he could borrow a dollar, and being the fool I am, I gave him one...You
need to know this, that I had given the other two dollars to a guy named
Gabriel a short time earlier...After I handed this guy the dollar, he laid
down on his bed, put a Walkman on his head, and began playing heavy-metal
music REAL loud, and chanting along with it...I began to get a queezy
feeling in my stomach...Then this guy got up, and looked at me and said,
"You look tired, man!"...Suddenly, a feeling of total confusion and
dizzyness came over me...I got up, but found I could barely stand...I ran
into the cafeteria a short ways away and in a frenzy, drank some coffee to
try to settle my head from spinning...Instead of doing that, I suddenly
felt as if the whole universe was contracting around me...I started to
black out, when a nurse and Gabriel appeared from nowhere with a
wheelchair...Gabriel told me to sit down, and I did so, and he and the
nurse began pulling me backward towards the lobby...AS they did so, I saw
in my minds eye being pulled backwards out of the center of the
universe...When we reached the door to the lobby, the nurse went through
one of the two swinging doors on the right side of me, but Gabriel stopped
short as if some kind of barrier was in his way...As the nurse pulled me
through the door, I felt my senses coming back, and suddenly everything
was normal and I was ok again...Gabriel said, "I could only hold TWO
back!"...And then I was back to normal, and could stand up with no
problems whatsoever, as if I had just been pulled out of Hell...

After a few more days, I signed myself out and forced my fake dad to take
me home...But they were not done with me yet...I stayed in my room, and
refused to speak to them...Finally, they called the Pet Team from
Cedars-Sanai Medical Center, which is a emergency response team, and lt
them into my room...A doctor was with them, and he asked me a few
questions, and then a bunch of orderlies came in and told me they were
taking me to the hospital and if I refused, they would forcefully take me
out...So I went along with them peaceably...When we arrived at the
hospital, a Dr. Herbert Kaplan took me into a room and asked me to sign
myself in...I refused and he told me about how I could merely sign myself
out the next day if I wanted...He just wanted me to sign the papers...I
refused, and he laid the papers down on my lap, and began walking around
the room with his hands pulled behind his back as if he had a straight
jacket on in a sort of trance...I got scared when he did this, and
signed...He grabbed the papers and ran out...I ran after him, and demanded
that he tear up the papers, and told him I wasn't being forced into
anything anymore...After a few minutes behind the counter, he came out
yelling loudly, "OK, Gary!  I'm tearing up the papers!!", and tore the
papers to shreds...Then a "nurse" took me over to a room and said,
unlocking it, "I think THIS was your room, Gary!"...You notice the past
tense there...

Two days later, Dr. Kaplan, if it WAS Dr. Kaplan, came up to me and said I
was being put on a two-week hold, and tried to force the papers into my
pockets, without success...This was quite illegal...I didn't have a
hearing of any kind, which I DID have the second time they threw me in
there a year or so later...And I didn't see, meet, or talk to any other
doctors or almost anyone else for that matter for those two weeks...The
file on me shows me having almost daily treatment, diagnoses, and
consultations with doctors of all kinds...I am suing for forgery, among
other things...

I was in the day room with two other guys, who started to look around as
if seeing some other place...Suddenly, they jumped up, and ran over to the
pantry door, and went in...They brought out of the pantry a big black guy,
who looked like he had been in there for a week...The two guys shouted,
"WE got him out of there!!"...The two guys were to play an important role
later on...

While walking the halls one day, a short girl came around the corner and
asked me my name...I had never seen her before...She told me her name was
Dawn...I didn't see her again until a day or so later, when one of the
other girl "patients" there went by me with a plant, carrying it as if it
was the last one of it's kind...I purposefully went by and acted like I
could care less about plants, which is a lie...Suddenly Dawn came up
behind me and starting cougthing, as if all the air was being sucked out of
the atmosphere...Then she swiftly ran over to me, grabbed me by the arm
and started to pull me..."Come with Dawn through this doorway!", she
exclaimed...I pulled back, and Dawn let go of my arm, and looked over to
the nurse station, where a black woman "nurse" had looked up..."I was only
taking him for a walk!", Dawn said to her...The nurse came out and said,
"Just WHERE were you taking him?"...She put her hands on Dawn's shoulders
and Dawn went limp...She turned Dawn around so she was facing the front
door, where she had been trying to lead me...The front door opened, and a
tall, bearded heavy-set guy walked in...He stopped right in front of Dawn
and just stood there for a second or two...Then, suddenly, something hit
Dawn from the front and she collapsed in a heap on the floor...I jumped
back about 4 feet through the air, to say the least...

A few days after this, Dawn was sitting in the day room with me and a
number of other people, including one of those two guys...Suddenly, she
looked at the guy and he looked at her intensely...She and this other guy
got up at the same moment, and while I was watching them, and noone else
was, they moved together and jumped backwards and disappeared...Just
disappeared into thin air...I know, because I didn't believe it, and ran
around the corner to see if they had gone around that...They were GONE!!
Suddenly, the fire alarms went off, and the nurses ran up and forced me
back into the day room...They kept the other people in there as well, all
the time looking around and behind themselves...After a few minutes, I
snuck out of the room and walked up to the nurses station...One of the
nurses exclaimed, "Where's OUR Max?!"...My fathers name...I repeated her
words in my mind, and she touched her nose with her index finger in a
sudden move, which is a silent codeword they use for "Yes"...After a few
moments my fake dad came through the doors and the alarms stopped...

I was released from there at the end of the two weeks, and shipped right
out on the next plane back to Florida, a day too late to register for my
classes at FSU...I have the fake file now...One of the doctors who
supposedly saw me, a Dr. Donald Wallens, was one of the shrinks I saw
after the TV incident, although I didn't know it at the time...

Another time when I was dragged back to LA, I was driven into the
underground parking structure at the Emergency Room at UCLA by my clone
parents...A security guard started walking towards the car, and I started
to open the door so as to run away...My fake dad screamed at me, "No, Son,
don't open that door...I'm begging you!"...It was this that made me
suspect that my real parents were possibly in some other parallel
dimension...I jumped out of the car, but the security guard came running
up and grabbed me...He lifted me off my feet and carried me fifty yards
though the air into the Emergency Room and threw me into one of the empty
rooms...My fake parents signed me into the mental hospital, and there I
was again...After that, I started plotting my revenge...

I hope this has "enlightened" you...

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Higher Sources
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 07:39:14 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:

>I feel sorry for you young men, so quick to form your opions of reality
>in such short order... Little carbon copies all over the place.
>Well Prof. so and so sez...

Steady on...  I merely  *suggested*  that the effect could have been
produced by an  alternative method;  I didn't say it  actually *was*
I accept that there's more going on in this Universe than we're ever
likely to understand.  I wanted to know if conventional methods such
as stop-motion photography could be discounted in Dr Demonde's case,
that's all.



Now, leaving that explosive subject to one side for the moment ...

>Actually, "higher sources" assure us that all matter does indeed have
>an intelligence of it's own; in its own way.

Who are these "higher sources" ?



>Jeff-

-Sean.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Tracks of the Unknown.
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 07:39:16 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 34

I found  this report of a cattle  mutilation in the Reader's
Digest -  "Mysteries of the Unknown".   It differs from most
reports  in  that  tracks  were left behind,   presumably by
whatever was responsible for the attack.

---
TRACKS OF THE UNKNOWN

A "mysterious trail of suction-like impressions"  caught the
attention  of  the  cattle  inspector  and  law  enforcement
officer investigating a typical case of cattle mutilation in
Rio Arriba County, New Mexico.   The incident,  involving  a
three-year-old  cow missing its sexual organs,  tongue,  and
one ear,  was reported June 13,  1976,  by a rancher  in the
Dulce area.
        The  June  15  issue  of   _The_Albuquerque_Tribune_
stated that the indentations were tripodlike, about 4 inches
in diameter and 28 inches apart from each other.  The tracks
terminated about 500 feet from the dead animal, according to
the law officer,  "as if they had landed at that point, gone
to the cow and then returned to that point."   The day after
the  investigators   had  visited  the  site,   the  article
continued,   the   rancher  had  returned  and   "found more
depressions on top of the tyre  tracks made by his truck the
day before."  Several similar incidents were to occur in the
Dulce area in 1978.
---

Has anyone heard of any other incidents in which tracks have
been left behind ?

-Sean.

[e-mail] | [e-mail]
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8498 alt.conspiracy:17748
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ellis!mfm0
From: [e-mail] (martin frederic melhus)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: aliens, invasion, stollman
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
References: <vb8mbs=[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 07:45:51 GMT
Lines: 11

Gary -

Why don't you just move to Fiji, or some remote place?  Blow off
everyone and everything and get out.  I've heard that it's nice
there, and it sure sounds like you need a change of scenery.

--
                          | You have all the time from when you remove the |
     Martin F. Melhus     | card(s) from your hand until you put it (them) |
 [e-mail] | on the pile to say "Last Card".  If you don't, |
                          | take your two. - Hidden texts, Book of MauMau. |
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8499 alt.conspiracy:17749
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 08:45:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Keywords: aliens, invasion, stollman
References: <vb8mbs=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

[e-mail] (martin frederic melhus) writes:

>Gary -

>Why don't you just move to Fiji, or some remote place?  Blow off
>everyone and everything and get out.  I've heard that it's nice
>there, and it sure sounds like you need a change of scenery.

>--
>                          | You have all the time from when you remove the |
>     Martin F. Melhus     | card(s) from your hand until you put it (them) |
> [e-mail] | on the pile to say "Last Card".  If you don't, |
>                          | take your two. - Hidden texts, Book of MauMau. |

*****
Thanks for the suggestion...If I hadn't discovered Tallahassee, I probably
would take it...But I live in what is the most wonderful place in the
country, a place that took me seven long years and much traveling all over
the country to find...I AIN'T giving it up cause a bunch of cowardly
Reagan's and Bush's decided to try to ruin my life and violate my
rights...I am gonna show them what it means to fuck with MY family!!!

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!boulder!ucsu!ucsu.Colorado.EDU!buckley
From: [e-mail] (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY)
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <kivaman.713891474@milton>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 10:03:11 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <kivaman.713891474@milton> [e-mail] (Mark Hammergren) writes:
>[e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>
>>...
>>If it was the work of the US government, why wouldn't they raise the cattel
>>themselves? Much cheaper than flying multimillion dollar helicopters
>>around, which is the ONLY possible "other" explaination for all of this.
>>...
>
>If it IS the work of aliens, why don't they raise the cattle THEMSELVES?
>Much cheaper than flying spacecraft dozens of light years...
>
Maybe they watched predator to many times? But being so skinny, they decided
that cattle would be more likely prey.

>Just my 2 credits worth...

Charles Buckley

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11212 alt.alien.visitors:8501 sci.skeptic:28983
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 07:03:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Rock Hounds: The answer is 1. Daytime 2. I don't want any perminently
invisible fish. 3. My E-mail is not getting through to J. and Kumar.
Now to a new subject; Sealing Aura. Are your friends bugging you? Would
like to cut them off. With a few aplications of Sealing the Aura you can
eliminate that problem. Now the first things you have to do is get youself
a candle or any other object that you can consentrate your physical eyes
and mind on. Get in a room with subdued light (not much light) and con-
sentrate on the lighted candle for a while until your physical vision starts
to get tired. Next think about our Aura (the magnetic field around your
body) and project a vivisible shield around your body (sort of a bubble).
Make this shield so that only good vibrations and thoughts---
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11213 alt.alien.visitors:8502 sci.skeptic:28984
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 07:09:12 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

--will get through it. Make this shield above around and even into the
ground underneath you. Do this on two or three nights in a row and you
might find that your health will be getting better especially if you live
around some psychic vampires.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 07:40:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <kivaman.713891474@milton>
Lines: 4

Dear Jeffery: I like your selection of books. I've read a few of them
and in the past have bought a few books in the East West Book Store. It
is a good place to meet people who are searching for the truth.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8504 alt.conspiracy:17751
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 07:56:50 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <vb8mbs=[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Gary: It's good to hear you on the Net. People try to flame
me by calling me you. I know people who just read this net to hear
what you have to say. You may be a lot of things but in my opinion
you are interesting so keep on posting.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Lear info from Matrix (long)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 08:07:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Jeff: I believe there is a lot of truth in what you have to say.
Keep up the good work.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!fauern!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!chsun!pegasus.ch!dr_who
From: [e-mail] (Sysop of PEGASUS)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO Sighting in switzerland 1990
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:16:01 +0200
Organization: Pegasus BBS, Switzerland
Lines: 37

Hi friends,

At our bbs-party, my friend showed me some pictures (photos) from
a local UFO sighthing.
The photos were very good ...
They were not the usual stuff  (GRAYS or such stuff).

They were took, from a friend of him, in the area of ARBON (Switzerland) at
the lake of constanz, about in the year 1990.
(BTW: my friend works is a specalist in makeing special effects photos and
 he told me that it nearly impossible to create such photos in a studio)

On one of the picture there was the 'UFO' sourounded by different
coloured light.
After the thing has landed. some blue rotating lights were outside the
thing... Some of thoses blue 'lights' were flying arround his body.
(scanning him ???)

He was able to talk with that lights and he was also able to touch
those 'things'. They were cold objects.

Afterwards he some some other light-objects :
They looked like paintings from a child...
He thougth that they 'the aliens' were imitating him with light...

What do u think about that stuff ?

greets
Roger
--

      Mail    : Roger Sieber, Hauptstr. 102, CH-9434 Au/SG
      Internet: [e-mail]         __
      Phone   : ++41-71-71 70 42         ///
                                    __  ///    There can be only one ...
        Sysop of PEGASUS BBS        \\\///
     BBS Phone: ++41-71-71 55 77     \XX/      X.25 : [phone]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Disinformation Agents at Work?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 04:09:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <1tymt#[e-mail]> <rb1mwy=[e-mail]>
Keywords: UFO disinformation
Lines: 12

In article <rb1mwy=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steven Vere) writes:
> >
> >readers will note the similarity in tone and content of this reply by
> >Lawrence Foard with the earlier reply by Kevin Quinn to my original post.
>
> No, if anybody is CIA here, it *must* be me.

No, *I'm* CIA, er MIB. No, I'm Ollie North!
Where's Gary Stollman when you need him.

*
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ibmpcug!pipex!warwick!mrccrc!doc.ic.ac.uk!sot-ecs!of
From: [e-mail] (Fibre Optics)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 92 11:05:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: vicky

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:

>Rick (Slater):

>I'm still waiting for your proof that humans created all the
>crop circles with 2x4s...

>In fact, could you prove that humans created ANY of them?  Now guys,
>let's have him figure out this one by himself...

>Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans.

Obviously I can't _prove_ anything to you but I know several that were
created by humans last year. I know the guys that made them.

>Rick

--
Peter Harris   G4BDQ  |         Unusual exploding disclaimer  ->    (}|){//)
Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-)
Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\)
[e-mail]    |           Kerry Wendell Thornley              |||
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:49:51 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Raymond Shaw) writes:
>I have been following the various postings on Crop Circles and thought people
>in this group might find an interview with Colin Andrews (founder of Circles
>Phenomenon Research, an internatiional organization dedicated to the
>investigation of the crop formations) by Monte Leach, USA editor for Share
>International magazine, of interest.  This interview is excerpted from the
>July/August 1992 issue of Share International.
>[..]

>CA:  We have been showing evidence, arrived at by a German distillation process
>at HSC laboratory, at Stroud in Gloucestershire, that there had been a change
>in the crystalline structure of the [crop circle] plants.  This is an
>unconventional process that's worried a lot of scientists, who were concerned
>that we were travelling up the wrong road in our research.

Plants contain crystals?  That's new to me.  Any biologist there to confirm it?

>        But in the crop formations of that pre-contaminated period prior to
>1989, what Gerald Hawkins has proven is that, well beyond a chance of over 90
>per cent, we are looking at diatonic ratios within the crop circles.  And
>perhaps we're looking at ancient geometry which could relate to sound itself,
>because these are the same ratios which underlie the diatonic scale in music.
>It's an extremely significant development.  What's for sure is that I doubt if
>there is any hoaxer in the world who would begin to even know what it is we're
>talking about, let alone calculate his handiwork to compare ancient diatonic
>ratios of that kind.

That very much sounds like the people who are squeezing all sorts of phenomena
into numerical schemes: e.g. finding astronomical relevant numbers in pyramids.
Other examples: Fliess biorhythms or even the Titius-Bode series.

>        In terms of this planet, I believe that we are looking at a single,
>living molecule.  The Gaia theory makes perfect sense to me, that we are indeed
>looking at a living planet, a living organism. [..]

>[..] There are high
>levels of energy which are being intelligently placed into position in critical
>parts of the planet.  These, if you like, are probably the chakra points, to
>give it a term, important energy points of the living organism. [..]

>[..] I believe that they are occurring literally at the
>interface between this dimension of the world that we know quite a lot about
>and those other dimensions of which we know so very little.
>[..]

>CA:  I have felt for quite some years that we are certainly going to experience
>something of great magnitude.  It is going to be very soon.  We are going to
>encounter something here which I don't think any man or woman is going to
>doubt.
>        This coming few months is going to see one or two events which are
>going to shake the world.  It is going to focus our attention and the reality
>of knowing we are not the only thinking components of this living planet.  We
>are going to be stunned into accepting that we have much more to consider.
>[..]

I think this belongs into Robert Sheaffer's Predictions File.

>CA:[..]  We will be receiving assistance of new knowledge, new
>abilities, because we will be working at a different level.  We will see
>manifestations of the Fatima** type.  That is the picture that is in my mind.
>It is a very clear picture.  I see certainly a Fatima-type experience
>occurring. [..]

>        It is also worth bearing in mind the Hopi Indian prophecy.  We have
>reached a stage at the very end of the evolutionary path where the Hopi are
>awaiting the white man who left their land to return with the missing piece of
>a tablet on which there will be the signs. [..]

This guy literally believes in *everything*!  Gaia hypothesis, chakras, other
dimensions, precognition, Fatima, Golden Ages, Hopi mythology.  He forgot to
mention Hoerbiger's Glacial Cosmology and Bigfoot.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8510 alt.conspiracy:17755
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!gumby!destroyer!ubc-cs!mala.bc.ca!oneb!kmcvay
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 20:04:50 GMT
References: <vb8mbs=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: aliens, invasion, stollman
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>Thanks for the suggestion...If I hadn't discovered Tallahassee, I probably
>would take it...But I live in what is the most wonderful place in the
>country, a place that took me seven long years and much traveling all over
>the country to find...I AIN'T giving it up cause a bunch of cowardly
>Reagan's and Bush's decided to try to ruin my life and violate my
>rights...I am gonna show them what it means to fuck with MY family!!!

That's what Mutlu used to say <heh heh> and look at him now....

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From Vienna, the Jews were sent by train to Treblinka on March 26 and 28,
1943, and they were all exterminated upon arrival." (Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A.
Margaliot, eds., Documents on the Holocaust, Jerusalem, 1981, pp.338-339)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!lynx!nmsu.edu!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Good)
Subject: Re: Angels and other things.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: New Mexico State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 23:39:08 GMT
Lines: 42

Titanium Knight writes
> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>
> > Hello all,
> >   How about generating a litle discussion on a topic I haven't seen in
> > this group since I started following it. What do you netters think
> > about the so called 'Angel Hair' that has been found at various locations
> > around the world. People have taken samples of this only to find that
> > when they check their containers or whatever they put the stuff in that
> > it has disappeared. The explanations I have heard have run from spider
> > webs to chaff (which doesn't disappear) to material ejected or left
> > behind by UFO's.
>
> Nothing out of this world at all.  I know the USAF (?) uses this stuff to
> apparently screw up radar, or something like that.  It's just that the
> public dosen't know about it, and it's supposed to be secret.  Atleast
> that's what I've been told (to keep it secret).  But it was a long time
> ago and I can't remember all the details.  Too late now!  :-)
>
> Titan
>
> ;--- (Titanium Knight) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
> ;E-mail: [e-mail]
> ;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8

I'm probably a little behind on the times a bit, but isn't the chaff used just
a type of shreaded foil?  The metalic threads were needed to screw with radar
and head signals and stuff like that...

But, if the stuff you're talking about is 'secret', then that explains why I
don't know what I"m talking about anyway..  :)

--

Joseph Good
+-------------------+ - More than just a band....
| Green Dot Brigade | - It's a whole damn army of dots...
+-------------------+ - And we've declared war on the 7-Up dots...

[e-mail] (NeXT mail welcome!!) (main account)

[e-mail]  (Just plain ol' Unix) (seldom used)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PROJECT BLUEBOOK SOLICITATION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 00:41:14 EDT
Lines: 20


>From: Elite Enterprises <[e-mail]>

>If you would like to receive these ASCII PBB files on a weekly basis for an
> indefinite time period, I will send them by e-mail (4 times a month) for
> $8/month. I know that seems way too low for this service but you need the
> information at a fair price to both parties. Remember, PBB is over 90
> micro-fiche rolls! You will be guaranteed at least 10 ASCII PBB files every
> month. These ASCII PBB files will be from PBB ONLY (and not from other
> sources)!

Excuse me, but isn't soliciting over the Internet unethical/illegal? Isn't
using the Internet to distribute solicited materil also illegal?
(Note the shareware doesn't fall under this category since no payment
is actually required to receive the product).

Also, use the <RETURN> or <ENTER> key every 70-80 characters or so....

-Garrett

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8513 alt.conspiracy:17769
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INVASION!!!
Summary: What you don't know CAN hurt you!
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman
Message-ID: <#[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:11:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 28


I am sitting here writing this, as my dad sleeps in the room next to
me...Apparently, the aliens and the CIA placed something inside to monitor
him, as I knew from previous experience with the kinds of things I hae
gone through, because every few minutes he lets out a agonizing series of
moans that makes my blood curl and my hate grow...I am going to blow this
thing wide open soon...The assholes that did this to my family are gonna
regret it...I still can't believe what they did to ME in that Emergency
Room in Tallahassee...I don't believe what -I- was able to do...This IS
like something out of the twilight zone...If anyone at FSU is reading
these notes, get your family and friends OUT of the hospital there!!
After cutting up my dick like they did, I wouldn't put anything past
them...I would advise getting out of FSU as well, as it was
breached also, and clones made of the teachers whose classes I was
in...And the kids who were in my classes were taken as well...FSU may
have the fastest computer in the world, but it don't matter a damn when
you have to go through what I have had to...I feel sorry for the innocent
people there most of all...But the government in town was not innocent!!
That goes double for Senator, then governor Bob Graham...If he wasn't IN
on it, I sure don't have much to say for his officials...One thing I AM
sure of, this government is gonna fall...It is only a matter of time...


--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!alsvid!peg!golight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:22:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4
Nf-ID: #R:cup.portal.com:62611:peg:422800033:000:116
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Aug 17 18:22:00 1992


Under everybody
[A[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C's carpet...of course...where else does dust go?
Regards ;_} Photon
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8515 alt.conspiracy:17773
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:36:24 GMT
References: <#[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 6

Dear Gary: Another person that people like to call me is Mutlu (a person
who has a lot to say about politics of the Armenians and Turks. Gary in
my opinion you should have them make a movie of all of this. I can't say
that I believe it all. It may be true and it may be just what you imagine
but I think it would sell about like Friday the 13th.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:29:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>I still say that all you have to do to convince everyone that aliens are making
>these circles is to just catch the aliens in the act.  This shouldn't be
>too hard, should it?  *I'll* be waiting for your videotape...
>
>keith

You'll get to see it second! ;-)




Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:33:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans.
>
>That is easy.  Now, how about proving to us that any of the circles were

But you have yet to prove it.  Show me your evidence.  Do you have any
'proof' that the circles were created by humankind?  All I've heard as of
yet, is heresay.  (The point I'm trying to make here is that neither
of us has absolute proof of our respective claims.)

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:38:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>They caught people making some.  Isn't that proof enough?
>

Well, no.  All I've got in front of me is some ascii text that says
that someone caught someone else.  That wouldn't be quite enough
to stand up in court.

I want you to name names, cite citations, produce evidence that you
can prove in a legal sense that your claims are valid.

I want to see the lie-detector tests and the "after the confessions
investigations" and evidence, if any, that the information dug up
on those confessing is true or false.

Just your "telling" me that someone got caught is heresay.

What you "believe" is your opinion.

I'm digging for my info.  I'll let you know when I get it.

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:49:29 GMT
References: <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Aimee Powell) writes:
>
>Before I go, one more thing:  Why is it up to me to prove
>the more plausible of the two explanations?  Should we *not*
>believe more easily that the circles are hoaxes, when we have
>evidence to support that claim, rather than believe that an alien
>(or other) force is at work, when we have absolutely NO evidence
>for that at all?
>

That's the point.  You jump on the assertation that some, if not
all of the circles are hoaxes.  Then, you jump to the conclusion that
since you can safely rule out some of them, they must all be the same.

That's the kind of 'scientific' logic that created spontaneous generation,
vital spirits, and bleeding with leeches.

I'm not saying that they weren't all created by fraudulent means.
I'm saying that I'm keeping my options open.  I'm not going to
make a judgement here.  I don't 'believe' that some of the crop circles
were created by aliens in spaceships.  I have read statements that
distinguish between the circles created by two men confessing to a hoax
and circles with entirely different characteristics.  I have read
of circles created in the '50's, well before the confessing hoaxters
were to have started their games...

I'm not ready to lay my money down on the table.

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:57:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>    It sounds like sleepwalking/telepathy would be a convenient excuse for the
>"victim" to turn off the camera and then make up a nice story of what
>followed.


I can't argue with the hypothesis...  any number of abductees could
possibly be frauds...  similar to those used by the Amazine Randee.

I, personally, would like to see the stories confirmed.  The latest
case by Bud Hopkins, however, sounds suspicious.  If nothing else,
to quote the Church Lady...  "How convenient!".

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Those Breakdancing Rocks.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 06:48:27 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Rock Hounds: Sticks and stones may bread my bones but those rocks
keep on hunchings. It have not observed the movements of rocks personally.
I have heard of people communicating with rocks. I personally prefer
dogs or trees.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:06:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Investigator: In regards to your question about the person talking
in another language; I have a friend in San Jose who channels a spiritual
space person. This entity has appeared in a physical manifestation to her
before and gave her information and advice. I once asked her (Gloria is
her name) to answer a certain question I had. The question was; What
can you tell me about the 120 hours of darkness and period of total
light that Hatoon has been predicting? His answer was quite profound.
If you will send me your address through E-mail I will see if Gloria's
space friend will be so kind as to answer you question.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wanted: Linguist expert
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:09:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Planet: I just made the mistake of answer your request on the next
article. I hope you don't get as confused as I appear to be.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: New LITE Beer Commercial with aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:38:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

--bringing back a lot of the people. Our government wants to get out of the
deal so we now see things on TV like The Intruders and commercials with
space entities that look a lot like the Greys. Previous to that time
they chose to show them looking like ET (which I liked also). So I
think we are being shown very close to the truth.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: New LITE Beer Commercial with aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:31:50 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear TV Commercial Watchers: A three star general in the last few years
(while he was in the service) was approached by our government to be
part of a thing called Project Awareness (or something to that effect).
In this program he was to be given money to spread around to TV people,
authors, movies and other people to start telling the truth to the
general public. This would sort of soften up the public.  It was stated
that we had made a contract with some of the Greys to get technology from
them and all we had to do was to let the Greys abduct our people for
genetic engineering and other things. They were supposted to give us a
report of how many they were taking. Now its got out of hand and the
Greys are taking about 2,000 people a year and not--------JW.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8526 alt.conspiracy:17777
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!ubc-cs!mala.bc.ca!oneb!kmcvay
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 14:25:19 GMT
References: <#[e-mail]>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman
Lines: 14

In article <#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>That goes double for Senator, then governor Bob Graham...If he wasn't IN
>on it, I sure don't have much to say for his officials...One thing I AM
>sure of, this government is gonna fall...It is only a matter of time...

Clever observation, Gary! (Don't suppose you've noticed the election
activity, eh?)

--
   ----------The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, Canada---------
An anonymous Canadian official was asked, in early 1945, how many Jews
would be allowed into Canada after the war. "None," he said, "is too many."
(From the preface of NONE IS TOO MANY, Toronto, 1982. ISBN 0-919630-31-6)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!nrcnet0!bnrgate!bwdls61!bwdlh130!zenith89
From: [e-mail] (Chris VanFleet)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Use Net)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bwdlh130
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd., Ottawa, CANADA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:26:01 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>Crop circles are created by alien spaceships...Not little old men carrying
>big sticks...Anyone who believes anything else is a nitwit and a fool...
>Linda Moulton Howe ran the designs through the computer of the guy who
>figured out Stonehenge, and they discovered mathematical equations, some
>of which we don't have...But I suppose those two dweebs know higher math,
>right??  SURE!!!
>
>    Gary Stollman
How clever does one have to be to create a circle? Does it
require as much intelligence as say pointing a gun at a
news anchor? Ha ha ha ha ha.......

BTW, for those not in the know... it's alleged that this is the
same "Gary Stollman" who held David Horowitz hostage some time
back.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!uwvax!zomma.cs.wisc.edu!cherkaue
From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PROJECT BLUE BOOK IN ASCII FORMAT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:44:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>Elite Enterprises <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>>re: MICRO-FICHE CONVERSION TO ASCII FILE FORMAT (f i n a l l y!!!!!)
>
>[advertisement deleted]
>
>Isn't this stuff public domain?
>
>If so, what would stop one person from subscribing to your service and then
>uploading it to an ftp site for all to enjoy?

All US government reports are indeed public domain. It may be cheaper to obtain
(paper) copies from the government, which by law may only charge you for the
actual reproduction costs.
--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:45:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>>>   events in it.  Turn on a videotape loop every night before going
>>>   to bed.  Maybe prepare the ground outside to mark footprints.
>>>   Set up automatic video or camera equipment around the house
>>>   to record people (beings, whatever) going in and out.  Et cetera.
>>
>>
>I met a lady whom was abducted, and she spoke of how the greys knew that
>she had a lot of guns in the house. They asked her why? (She is a PI)
>
>So obviously, they can scan the contents of a dwelling in pretty short
>order, and they know who is there, and what is there, and anything
>your thinking about.
>
>Not too difficult compared to beeming in thru walls and windows:
>She said her very solid bathroom wall became opaque, and the aliens
>left thru it

  They made a wall opaque?    Wow, they must have some pretty
  advanced technology -- maybe they can get Home Depot to sell
  their stuff -- I'm making a porch into a three season room
  and it took me all weekend to make the walls opaque.


> (which is much like what most abductees report) although
>they are reported to preferre windows to walls.

  Look, when I lived in Boston I had a neighbor who wore aluminum
  foil because the aliens were "beaming thoughts into his head".
  (Frankly I wish they would beam some thoughts into some of the
  heads in this newsgroup).  In the absence of any evidence the nutty
  things that this lady of my neighbor *say* is not too enlightening.

  These excuses about why nobody gets physical evidence of "abductions"
  are just a little too convenient -- sort of like the Christian Fundy's
  excuses for fossils, carbon dating and other evidence which appears
  to make the world seem older than 6000 years: being God, He made the
  fossils and other evidence too.

  Excuses, excuses.


---peter


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Whitley Strieber
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:55:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>Most abductees never talk about their experiences because people like you
>call those experiences "obviously false" just because they took a ride
>in the saucer, or claimed benevolent messages. Of the hundreds of known
>cases, contactees generally have similar experiences, and this can be
>correlated to abductees, whom generally have similar experiences as well.
>
>I found it interesting that in the US, aerospace workers are a favorite
>target of benevolent space brothers. (Sources: To the Men of Earth, and
>The Promise. )
>
>I have been to symposiums that had several contactees in attendence, and
>I am here to tell you that they are not a product of any particualr decade,
>they are not crazy, and they sincerely believe in their experiences and the
>messages given them to relate to others. Most have never sought to attract
>attention to themselves, let alone written a book about the experience,
>and many will not step forward for the betterment of man-kind because
>of PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

  Oh, ca-ca.   People Like Us (PLU's) so not apply any stricter standards
  of evidence to this topic than to any strong claim.  If someone claims
  that heavier-than-air machines can fly or pictures can be transmitted
  through thin air or razors placed under a pyramid become sharper or
  inexpensive exothermic cold nuclear fusion is possible then I expect
  evidence for these claims.  Sometimes this evidence is forthcoming
  and sometimes it is not.

  Talk is cheap (except on Usenet, Compuserve, etc).   But there are a
  LOT more people who have claimed personal contact with God, or other
  dieties and a LOT more books articles, and other written accounts
  of such contact than there are of contacts with "aliens".  Yet I still
  don't believe the former, so why should I believe the latter?   The
  bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.


---peter



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: coil
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:53:18 GMT
Lines: 30

[e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>
>>They caught people making some.  Isn't that proof enough?
>>

>Well, no.  All I've got in front of me is some ascii text that says
>that someone caught someone else.  That wouldn't be quite enough
>to stand up in court.

>I want you to name names, cite citations, produce evidence that you
>can prove in a legal sense that your claims are valid.

>I want to see the lie-detector tests and the "after the confessions
>investigations" and evidence, if any, that the information dug up
>on those confessing is true or false.

>Just your "telling" me that someone got caught is heresay.

>What you "believe" is your opinion.

>I'm digging for my info.  I'll let you know when I get it.

I cannot say that I personally have verifiable evidence showing that the circl
are hoaxes.  But, there was a guy that posted earlier stating that one of
his friend had made some.  Do you believe him?

keith

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:57:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>it at night. You have to understand that the livestock for these ranchers, I
>know-I used to raise cattle, are their life. They take care of them like
>babies almost. Another strange thing is: WHY? Why would someone "cownap" and

Given the power and influence of the Cattlemen's Association, it's
a good bet that you would do more hard time for stealing a cow
than for burglarizing a supermarket and cleaning out the meat cooler.

Is there a bounty on Greys?  :-)


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 18:06:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>>Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans.
>>
>>That is easy.  Now, how about proving to us that any of the circles were
>
>But you have yet to prove it.  Show me your evidence.  Do you have any
>'proof' that the circles were created by humankind?  All I've heard as of
>yet, is heresay.

That's about all that can be posted to the net.

>                        (The point I'm trying to make here is that neither
>of us has absolute proof of our respective claims.)

The point everyone else seems to be trying to make is that anybody can
go out into the fields and make a circle. And you did not answer my
post where I inquired as to what you would consider "absolute proof".

You turn a deaf ear to those questions which make your little game
playable. You made up the rules, now share them with us.

What would you accept as proof? If nothing, why should we waste our time?

>Rick
>
>--
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
>[e-mail]       |
>AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
>r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.

Rich

[e-mail]


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11221 alt.alien.visitors:8534 sci.skeptic:29037
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!hri.com!merrimack.edu!caina
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:39:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Big Al: I'll give it some thought about your suggestiion about sending
> you the picture. Maybe Don Showen or Jeff can help me in that project.
> Lynlee also helps me to operate. Like I say I can use all the
> help I can get. Now new subject. I need to look up a story I read a few
> years back. It talks about a person catching some fish in the ocean off
> the coast of Africa around some named islands. These fish were about the
> size and looke like a guppy. When he got the fish into his small
> net he could feel the fish jumping but couldn't see them. It
> seems that these fish become invisible when scared then turn to where you
> can see them in about 20 mlnutes if undisturbed. They sell for over $20,000
> per pair.  John Winston.



 Hey John, Here's an invisible dime.  Go call someone who cares.  Invisible
fish.  Next you'll be telling us your Elvis.

A.C.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:37:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  Look, when I lived in Boston I had a neighbor who wore aluminum
>  foil because the aliens were "beaming thoughts into his head".
>  (Frankly I wish they would beam some thoughts into some of the
>  heads in this newsgroup).  In the absence of any evidence the nutty
>  things that this lady of my neighbor *say* is not too enlightening.
>
>  These excuses about why nobody gets physical evidence of "abductions"
>  are just a little too convenient -- sort of like the Christian Fundy's
>  excuses for fossils, carbon dating and other evidence which appears
>  to make the world seem older than 6000 years: being God, He made the
>  fossils and other evidence too.
>
>  Excuses, excuses.
>
>
>---peter
>
Actually, if the implants Dr. John Mack has to turn out to be, we won't be having
these types of pointless discussions anymore...

What do you want? Photo's? You claim they're faked. Metal from the ship?
It's turned up before, but seems to be lost now if the government gets
wind of it. The only reason we don't have lots of evedence is because your
and my taxes go to suppressing it.

IF the Corona crash went to court, you could prove it happened. Lots of people
get locked away for life on far less evidence.
Jeff-
>
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wanted: Linguist expert
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 13:01:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Planet: I got mixed up and put answer to your questain on the
next article that is called "Question.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:50:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>What would you consider as proof?
Lots of things.  What I'm objecting to is these usenet posts that bandy
opinions about.  What I'm trying to do is get him to realize we're both
arguing a point without evidence.  To do that is to argue forever.
And it was a rhetorical question, anyway.

>Would the results of the crop-circle contest be considered as proof?
>Why or why not?
Of course it would.  Provided it was documented properly.  You missed
the point of the statement.  Completely.  And I still haven't seen
the "proof", nor has anyone offered to show it to me.  Pretend I'm
from Missouri...
>
>And lastly, why do you demand extraordinary evidence for simple things?
>And do you do this for everything, or just crop circles?
I don't consider asking for something other than heresay to be extraordinary.
I ask for second opinions from doctors.  I take everything a car salesman
tells me with a salt lick.  And if anyone thinks I believe what a politician
says to my face is true without qualifications,
then they are SERIOUSLY DERANGED.

Some things I accept.  Like the TV schedule (which can be wrong) and
my paycheck (  8-).

If you don't demand proof of this phenomena, then you're biased.
If you accept that man created all of these crop circles, then
you've made a conclusion without any basis of fact.  Yes, I will assume
that some human or humans created at least some of them.  Even if you
don't prove it.  I won't say that humans created ALL of them.  And you
can't prove they did.  They say you can't prove a negative.  You can't
prove an absolute, either, in this case.  To say absolutely, that humans
created them all as hoaxes, is ludicrous.  You have no proof.  (Sure,
you MIGHT be right!!  But, you can't prove yourself right, and therefore
can't rightfully shut the door on other explanations  8-)

All I contend is that there may be unusual explanations for these events.


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:00:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fibre Optics) writes:
>Obviously I can't _prove_ anything to you but I know several that were
>created by humans last year. I know the guys that made them.
>

Did they let you watch them create them?  Or did you just take their
word on it?

Actually, it's far easier to prove a human made a crop circle than it
has been to prove an alien (or Plasma, or Bigfoot, or whatever) created
one.

Yes, mine was a rhetorical question.

And my point, all along, is that while some of the circles have apparently
been made by men, no one has yet to prove that men made all of them.  Those
that dismiss crop circles as being man-made may be hastily dismissing
some that originate from other sources.

We can dance around semantics all day...  you'll not convice me that
men created all of the circles.  There will always be room for doubt, at least
until something else steps forward as an obvious explanation.

Rick  :-)
--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:07:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Aimee Powell) writes:
>Unsolved Mysteries *did* set up cameras to find out what was
>going on a couple (?) of years ago, and caught people faking
>the circles.
>

Now that's proof, when it's validated.  It's proof that men did
create at least that one circle.  It's not proof that others could
not be created by other means...  it's just proof that men did make
at least one.  It does not rule out other explanations.  (And, by the by,
it COULD have been staged.  But it was STILL picture proof that some
men DID create one.

It also shows that people need to get a better method of verifying this.

Like, wait until they're half done and then fire a 4.2" mortar flare
over their position...  8-O

Heck, those monsters ought to be caught...  go ahead and fire HE
with a 300M airburst...  that should make them stop completely if
they're ALL man-made...  show a couple of bodies and the pranksters
will stay home.  ;-)

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:14:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
Rick Pavek (me) said:
>>I say "Prove it".
>
Then Keith said:
>You can't "prove" that.  You can prove that an individual circle was created
>by humans, but you can't with one sweep prove that every circle was create
>by humans.  You are looking for a proof that does not exist.
>
>keith

YES, YES, YES.  You've GOT IT!!!  BY GOLLY, YOU'VE GOT IT!!  THAT'S THE
POINT!!  GIVE THAT MAN A CEEGAR!!  THA WINNA!!

BINGO!

Thanks Keith, we agree with each other.

My point exactly.  And the corollary: You can't with one sweep
(and one example) prove that because one was created by man, they ALL
were created by man.

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:19:17 GMT
References: <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Aimee Powell) writes:
>
>Before I go, one more thing:  Why is it up to me to prove
>the more plausible of the two explanations?  Should we *not*
>believe more easily that the circles are hoaxes, when we have
>evidence to support that claim, rather than believe that an alien
>(or other) force is at work, when we have absolutely NO evidence
>for that at all?
>
>Aimee

You don't have to prove which of the two is more plausible.

You DO have to prove that there is only ONE explanation for the
phenomena.





Rick
--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts.ccc.amdahl.com!minhtri
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:02:47 GMT
References: <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Amdahl Corporation - Macrocode Development
Lines: 7

(This is from Calvin&Hobbes comics)


     The surest sign that intelligent beings exist somewhere in the
universe is that they never tried to contact us.

                                                  --Calvin--
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:48:32 GMT
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Usenet Admin) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>(click,click,click,click,click,click,thum-thump) at 1 cps for approx 12 min.
>>click/thump fades to:
>>(wwwwwoooooooowwwwwwwwwoooooooowwwwwwww) at about 1 cps
>>with a
>>...oooooowwwwwwtinklewwwwwooooo...     about every 6 seconds (varies)

[the rest of this eloquent description deleted] :)


>>Anyone else heard this tape? Help me be more accurate in my descriptions
>
> Where would we get a copy of this tape?

Advent Publishing Company
Distribution Center
PO Box 3748
Carson City, NV  89702-3748

$5.00 cash, check or money order.

>Better yet: What frequency was the
>sound recorded from?? MHz, KHz?? What time of the day? Where was this done?
>And with what equipment? Did you try SSB? FM? Any filters used? Let's get VERY
>specific about the source of the sound. I have a nicely equipped synthesizer
>studio and could most likely duplicate the sounds *exactly*. Hence it might
>be useful to be able to listen to the frequency, perhaps even use some DF
>techniques to determine the source of the sounds, etc. A radio-savy prankster
>could easily have been transmitting the stuff using a modern hf tranceiver,
>with full coverage from 100KHz to 30MHz and to the untrained it would seem
>quite mysterious.

Frequency was 16.222 Mhz. They were using a Realistic (Rat Shack) DX400
receiver on AM only. They used a Sansui SC1110 Stereo Cassette Recorder.
Time of day was 0200 PDT.

The transmission sounds to me like a "well equiped synthesizer". Contact
me via e-mail if you want a few cuts for analysis.

>-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
>Citicorp(+)TTI                          *----------> panic trap; type = N+1 *
>3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
>{rutgers}!ttidca!sorgatz <- until 8/15/92 after-> ([e-mail])

Gregg.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

[STUFF deleted]


>
>Now, obviously that aliens, if they exist, do not want us to know that they
>are here, right?  Or else they would just land on the White House lawn like
>in that moive (you know the one).  So why would an alien that is intelligent
>enough to create some means to travel about 4 light years at least land his
>craft in the middle of a corn field if he knew that it would leave behind
>traces?  And besides, we never see and landing gear imprints, do we?  All we
>see is a circle of crops that look like they have been smashed over by some
>guy with a 2X4.

Obviously you have missed something here. Crop circles are not necessarily
supposed landing sites for alien spacecraft, or claims to such, but are
something else. The properties of these circles resemble "crops that look like
they have been smashed over bye some guy with a 2X4" only at a distance.
When examined further, there are more subtle and stranger properties. I
suggest you do a little reading. The crops were not "smashed" in some cases
but like they were "bent and weaved" into a very complicated pattern.

>
>And now, let's assume that the government has some top secret craft that
>would create such a circle.  As above, the government wouldn't be dumb
>enough to leave behind such obvious traces.
>
>Now, we have documented cases in which exact such circles have been created
>by hoaxsters.  Why the need for some supernatural explanation?  The "guys
>with plank" theory seems to work perfectly.  Until we see more evidence that
>indicates that this theory is not sufficient to explain the phenomenon, I
>see no use to propose something fantastic.

The evidence indicates such.

>My mind is closed you say?  No, I admit that there is a very very remote
>possibility that there are very dumb aliens out there.  I suppose it could
>be like the nutty professor who concots the GUT but then locks his keys in his
>car.  I sincerely doubt though that aliens would overlook this footprint.
>Show be an alien creating a crop circle, and I will believe that aliens
>create them.
>
>keith
>

And so will I. Myself, I am not sure they are any sort of landing spot.
One nice thing about life: Stay tuned for more information doesn't apply.
If they figure out what is causing them, I am sure we will hear. They
cannot, however, be passed off as "2X4 ROPE" circles. At least most
of them cant. As with all weird happenings, some are hoaxes, some are
explainables and some are not explainable.

Gregg.


From: [e-mail] (Michael Blackwell)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!acsnet
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: execute the messenge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:30:00 +1000
Lines: 43

 RS> In article <[e-mail]>
 RS> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
 >to
 >>dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
 >>morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
 >>screen door to see to my amazement
 >>7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not

 >speculation. I was fully awake genius. I can tell the difference between
 >reality & a dream,although I don't think you will wake up from your
 >personal nightmare!
 >
 >From the evidence I have seen sir,you are not a skeptic.......but a person
 >who will deny anything that does not fit into the glass house you call
 >reality.The day might come where a rock might be thrown in your general
 >direction.....are you ready? As the glass shatters & crumbles around you,
 >will you hold together or put a gun to your head? Only time will
 >tell...........
                 [stuff deleted]
 RS> the insolence to suggest that you may have experienced a
 RS> perfectly-normal physiological effect, i.e. dream imagery lingering a
 RS> brief while into wakefulness. Before you go off threatening those who
                 [stuff deleted]
 RS> any reliable book on Lucid Dreaming for more on the hypnogogic and
 RS> hypnopompic states. You do not seem to realize that distinguishing the
 RS> "dream state" from "reality" is a continuing challenge in Lucid Dream
 RS> research.

 RS> Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

Agree in total there with you. Having experienced very _heavy_ trips the
blurry line between dream & non dream is very wide. Of course the classic
answer is .....as you mind was freed from earthly bonds the Aliens(tm) could
comunicate with you easier.

Seems it is easier to believe in Santa than accept that presents are
put at the end of your bed by mummy & daddy.

Michael

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: AMb [61-8-269-1242] (3:800/869)
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From: [e-mail] (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:00:09 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
>Date: 4 Aug 92 09:19:02 GMT

>[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:

>>What I finf truly amazing is that people that I consider to be quite
>>intelligent get so completely bent out of shape and ignore all of
>>their skeptical training when some one mentions the g word.  Gun that
>>it, not god.

>>My earlier post was responded to by Leonard Norrgard, from Finland.  I
>>will not quote from the past articles, but simply make the following
>>comments:
>>1-The crime in this country occurs disproportionately in the large,
>>poor cities, such as NYC, Washington and Detroit. This has nothing to

>  This is probably the case in all poor cities.  The different
>crime rates in different countries might be mainly due to cultural
>differences (eg the disparity between the rich and poor in that city,
>how easy it is for criminals to get away with their crime etc)

>>do with guns because these cities have the strictest gun control laws
>>in the country.  In NYC, for instance, you simply can not buy hand
>>guns legally.  The problem is one of economics, and the symptom is
>>crime, some times perpetrated with guns.

>Are you claiming the robbery rate would be just as high if people
>had to use knives.

>>2-The comment about a person getting a gun and becoming a criminal,
>>thereby being able to get the gun legally, is pure bullshit.  This
>>simply does not happen (with any statistical significance).  There are

>Yes but a criminal would be more likely to rob if they have a gun
>rather than a knife or a stick (IMHO).

>>3-Anyone who believe that the police and military are there to protect
>>and serve is not living in the same world I am.  But, then again,

> The police are there to maintain some degree of order, protect
>property of the better off from damage, etc.  So they are there
>to protect.  I live on Earth what world do you live on?

>>  Hint: Would Tienamen Square have happened if the
>>Chinese had the RKBA?

>Why not?  Only a fool would believe possession of guns alone would
>prevent that GIVEN the fact that governments have tanks, missiles,
>flame throwers, napalm, etc.

>>Too many people have been brainwashed into believing that guns are bad
>>and that guns cause ccrime.  This simply isn't true.  As scientists,

>Give a criminal a knife and they might use it.
>Give a criminal a gun and they might use it.
>Give a criminal a nuclear bomb and they might use it.

>>we are obligated to seek the truth, not the propaganda spread by
>>certain groups.  Personally, the fact that I own firearms for the
>>my protection does not make me happy.  I would rather live in a
>>utopian society where everyone's needs and wants are met, thereby
>>eliminating the cause of crime.  However, the world today is not
>>utopian and to survive, we must each look out for ourselves.  And to
>>do this effectively, it means owning guns.

>Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
>massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
>you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
>that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
>used guns to commit more robberies etc.

Probably because their penal systems are better than ours.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is heroism.
Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 1943)
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>   Also remember that some "abduction victims" claim that it is a
>   repeated or regular occurence or that it's still happening to
>   them.  It would not be that hard to rig up their house to record
>   events in it.  Turn on a videotape loop every night before going
>   to bed.  Maybe prepare the ground outside to mark footprints.
>   Set up automatic video or camera equipment around the house
>   to record people (beings, whatever) going in and out.  Et cetera.
>   Use a little imagination.
>
>
>---peter
>
>
>

This is what gets me about this whole abduction thingy. I will restate the
fact that I am middle ground on this. I believe that the abduction are
happening but don't know what is causing them. It just kills me though in
some of the non-hypnotically induced recollections of Kathy Davis
(the central figure in Budd Hopkins' book INTRUDERS) she was called every
wednesday by something, somebody or someone that would "gab" for quite some
time in some strange "tounge" and then hang up. This happened the entire
time she was carrying her first child, >27 times.
(Forgot to mention, the call would be made at 3:00 in the afternoon each time)
A couple times she wasn't home and her mother would answer and hear it.
One ofher friends heard it. This happened in the middle of a bunch of
other claimed abduction incidents.

Now, pardon me, but if somebody calls me every week for 9 months on the same
day at the same time, the third of fourth time is gonna go on tape! Just
drives me crazy to read that part of the book. I figure there are a couple
explanations for the lack of a recording:

1) Kathy just never really thought of it. Some people live life without
   a reaction to anything or anybody.

2) Its a possibility "the aliens" programmed her not to record the stuff.
   According to INTRUDERS abductees are pretty much controlled by the
   abductors.

3) It could all be a sham and never happened. Thats why recordings were never
   mentioned.


 One common thing I see is the "wet noodle" approach these abductees tend to
 have toward life and living. Could be the "aliens", if they exist, choose
 these type of people so it is easier to control them. Sorry, I can't live
 like that. Could be too that all this abduction stuff is fake and the
 "wet noodle" approach is an easy way to avoid substantiating the claim.

Gregg.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>[e-mail] (Usenet Admin) writes:
>
>    Anyone who has a shortwave radio and a tape recorder can record
>noises that sound like the description presented here.  By and large,
>pretty much anything you hear is either some naturally occurring
>phenomenon or is cuased by FAX transmissions, high speed computer
>controlled morse code, digital transmissions, encrypted audio, etc.
>
>Pray tell, just what makes them so sure tha anything they have
>heard is alien, i.e., what proof of this do they offer?
>
>Duane

True, true, all true. However, the K-2 stuff says they used RDF to find
the source and found in was being produced by a secret alien base. Personally
I think it was produced with a very expensive sythesizer. Want a copy? I
can't find any copyright infor on the tape or memo they sent me so I
think I can legally send you a copy. Hmmmm...Maybe I should check with
the Greys first. :> Contact me via e-mail if you want to hear it.

Gregg.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!gburton
From: [e-mail] (Garland O Burton)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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did anyone see the "in search of" epsidode where the "rock hounds"
found the "spark plug like device?"

it was imbedded in a rock said to be many thousands of years old.

what was that thing, where is it now and what do *they* call it.

gb

--
[e-mail].............copyright 1992 gary burton........
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From: [e-mail] (Garland O Burton)
Subject: Re: PROJECT BLUE BOOK IN ASCII FORMAT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Lines: 6

where can I, JOE CITIZEN, get my hands on the project bluebook papers?

j.c.

--
[e-mail].............copyright 1992 gary burton........
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From: [e-mail] (Garland O Burton)
Subject: the missing link
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did anyone ever stop to think that we are all aliens to this planet?

thousands of years ago primatives could have been cross bred with our
ancestors from afar.  "missing link?" you say.  were the dinosaurs erradicated
before the experiment began for any certain reason?  what do our ancestors from afar think of what we've done to the planet up to now?  when will they think    their experiment has gone far enough?  are hussein and kadaffee(sp?) the        pinacle of the species?  was hitler?  cindy crawford?

>8*][=<


--
[e-mail].............copyright 1992 gary burton........
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From: [e-mail] (C Squared)
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors,comp.os.coherent
Subject: Story about Kibo
Keywords: Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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    Here is the long awaited story involving Kibo.  As previously
discussed, I would have Kibo's permission to use his name if he existed.
Also, if he existed he would have asked me to cross-post this to the
groups which I cross-posted to.

    There is a quiz (Multiple choice) at the end.  Please post results
to as many groups as you want.

                           Zangara's Elegy

    "'He was a bloody tyrant and we brought him down.  And I will not
have history think I did it for a bag of gold or in some kind of rabid
fit!`"
    I looked curiously at this disheveled individual who was ranting
what I perceived to be nonsense.  I turned to my guide, and hopefully
future employer.  "What is he talking about?"
    "Oh, he's no one.  He thinks he's John Wilkes Booth, that's all,"
came the reply.  I looked closer at my guide.  I hadn't really studied
him up to this point.  Suddenly however I knew that he posed me no
threat, and so I wished to know more about him.
    "'Tell them how the Union can never recover from that vulgar, high
and mighty niggerlover, Never--!`"
    I began going over what I knew about my guide.  His name was Dr.
Charles Guiteau, and he was the director of the mental ward of the
University of Massachusetts Medical Center.  I knew nothing about his
credentials, but that was not where my curiosity lay.  I was interested
in his character, and since it was profession to know other peoples
thoughts, I was able to delve into his inner self even as he showed me
the building.
    "Kibo, would you like to join us?" Dr. Guiteau asked the mental
patient.  "This is Dr. Sam Byck, and I'm showing him around the
building."
    "My name is not Kibo, it is Johnny Booth.  Sure, I'll come along.
'Someone slew the tyrant, just as Brutus slew the tyrant`"
    "We don't know his real name, so for a while we were calling him
Johnny.  Then the doctor who was handling his case decided it was better
to call him something else.  I'm not sure where the name Kibo came from
though,"  Dr. Guiteau rambled on.  "By the way, if you come on Kibo will
be one of your patients.  Dr. Czolgosz, the man who left for Buffalo,
was his doctor."
    I had been half listening to this exchange until Dr. Guiteau's
last sentence.  Suddenly my interest in this specimen was piqued.  There
had to be some way of using him to my purposes.  "I would be interested
in seeing his file," I replied, confident that my speech had not skipped
a beat.
    "That will have to wait until you accept the position, which we
hope you do.  It will certainly give our department prestige, something
we have been lacking for quite a while."
    This man was showing all of his cards, wasn't he?  I had nothing
to fear at all, in fact I had him wrapped around my finger.  Kibo on the
other hand was someone I would have to learn.  His next comment through
me for a loop.
    "'Attention must be paid.`"
    "That was from Death of a Salesman.  Arthur Miller was born in
1915, and wrote that play in 1949.  John Wilkes Booth died in 1865.  Why
is he quoting Arthur Miller?" I frantically asked Dr. Guiteau, although
I'm sure he couldn't see the panic I was feeling.
    Dr. Guiteau just chuckled.  "Listen to him a little longer, maybe
you'll figure it out.  Although if you do, you're a better detective
than I.  I had to read his file to figure it out.  I still don't know
how Dr. Czolgosz deduced it.  Maybe Kibo told him, I don't know."
    "'I'm an actor Lee, and I'm a good one.  But Willy Loman is a part
that I could never play.`"
    "Lee!  Who the hell is Lee?!?" I blurted out anxiously.
    Dr. Guiteau chuckled again.  He just didn't understand, did he?
"Tell Dr. Byck who Lee is Kibo," Dr. Guiteau said quietly.
    "Why Lee Harvey Oswald of course.  Who else would I be talking to?
And DON'T CALL ME KIBO!!!!  Please."
    "Now don't get hostile," Dr. Guiteau turned back to me.  "Do you
understand any better now?"
    "Yes," I said, much more calmly.  It was really a good think that
Guiteau was so clueless and Kibo was nuts, or I might have been in deep.
I made a mental note to control my emotions better than I had.  "But I
still don't see how John Wilkes Booth could be talking to Lee Harvey
Oswald, and how he could be quoting Death of a Salesman."
    "Keep listening, maybe you'll figure it out.  If not, I guess
you'll have to accept the position so you can look at his file."  He
chuckled again.  God, that chuckle was getting annoying.
    "'You should kill the President of the United States. . . . He
didn't come here to get shot. . . . Lee, when you kill a president it
isn't murder.  Murder is a tawdry little crime. . . . when Julius Caesar
got killed--he was assassinated. . . . Ah, you know his name.  Brutus
assassinated Caesar -- what?--two thousand years ago, and here's a high
school drop-out with a dollar twenty-five an hour job in Dallas, Texas,
who knows who he was.  And they say fame is fleeting. . .`"
    My clinical mind was itching to get Kibo in a padded room and go
to work on him.  He intrigued me immensely.  Dr. Guiteau on the other
hand was extremely simple, and I could manipulate him any way I saw fit.
So I told him, "Kibo here fascinates me enormously.  He has stimulated
my professional curiosity to the point where I must see if I can help
him.  Therefore I accept the position as your assistant here at U/Mass
Medical Center."
    "Good, good, we are very excited for you to be on our staff."  His
use of the word we was getting cumbersome, but I bore with him.  "Let me
show you to your office.  All of Dr. Czolgosz's files have been put in
there already."  Now we were getting somewhere.
    "'That's a Mannlicher-Carcano.  6.5 millimeter.  Stopping range
900 yards.  The sight's already been adjusted. . . . My name is John
Wilkes Booth, Lee.`  Ahem!  'My name is John Wilkes Booth, Lee.`"
    "Oh, that's my cue," said Dr. Guiteau.  "He likes to have an
Oswald for this part.  'John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln.`"
    "'Attention has been paid.`"
    "He's trying to convince Oswald to kill Kennedy, isn't he?"  I
asked Guiteau.  "It's as if he's reading from a script."
    "You are good.  That's exactly what he's doing.  Like I said, I
don't know how Dr. Czolgosz figured it out, but the things that Kibo
says in the guise of John Wilkes Booth are from a Broadway musical
called Assassins.  He must have been exposed to it before he came here.
In fact Dr Czolgosz's theory is that Kibo was as sane as you or I when
he was exposed to it, and then some action shocked him into this
persona."
    This will truly be an interesting subject.

                            * * * * *

    "Now Kibo, this is going to be different from your sessions with
Dr. Czolgosz.  First of--"
    "Please don't call me Kibo.  My name is Johnny Booth."
    What the hell, what do I care.  I'm going to undo all the progress
Czolgosz made on this bozo for my own purposes, so I might as well let
him have his way.
    "Of course it is.  When we are alone I will call you John.  But
when we are in public, I must call you Kibo.  Otherwise I might lose my
job.  Now you wouldn't want that."
    "No, of course I wouldn't.  'All you have to do is move your
little finger, and you can change the world.`"
    "Now Johnny, let's make a deal.  I will call you John when we are
alone.  I will not badger you with questions, but we will play games.
You call me Sam, again only in private.  In return you need to do some
things for me though.  First, do not quote lines from that play while we
are alone in this office.  Second, do not ever tell anyone what we do in
here.  And third, when we are in public, allow me to call you Kibo.  You
may correct others, but not me.  This will show that I am succeeding
with you.  I'm tired of seeing you used for research the way they used
you before, but if the hospital management found out that I had STOPPED
using you like a lab animal, then they will take me off of your case."
    I'll have him eating out of my hand in no time.  I'll look like a
genius.  Heh, I already do look like a genius.  I am a genius, only they
don't know the half of it.  I amaze even myself sometimes.
    "John, the first game we are going to play is word association.
Did you ever do this with Dr. Czolgosz?"
    "Yes, Dr.- er, Sam.  But I thought you said you weren't going to
badger me like Dr. Czolgosz."
    "I'm not.  This is going to be different, fun.  First off, you are
going to say the first word.  And the trick is that the word must start
with the last letter of the previous word.  And the object is to stump
the other person.  And you only get five seconds,no repeat words, and
nouns only.  Are you ready?  When I say so, you have five seconds, any
word.  Go."
    "Gun."
    "Nut."
    "Trap."
    What, is you psychic too?  "Plan."
    "Novice."
    That you are.  And you are dealing with an "Expert."
    "Tail. T-A-I-L."
    That's what I've got you by.  Now I'm going to teach you a
"Lesson."
    "Nymphomaniac."
    Now he's thinking.  That's when I can get him.  "Crusader."
    "Religion."
    There you go, now you're taking my lead.  "Norm."
    "Murder."
    "Romance."  What the hell am I doing?  I MUST think before I open
my mouth.  God, I'm a stupid shit.  I am playing with HIS mind, not the
other way around.
    "Exit."
    Good, he didn't catch it.  Of course he didn't catch it, he's
crazy.  Besides, Sherlock Holmes wouldn't have caught it.  "Tower."  I
am far too clever for anyone to catch me.
    "Razor."
    What is your trick?  Do you KNOW what's going on in my mind?  Calm
down, of course not.  "Rap."  But damn, you're hitting a nerve.  Maybe I
should just lose and end the game.
    "Poison."
    All right, you little punk, this game is ending.  No wait, you
can't know.  You're a fucking nutcake.  You think you're John Wilkes
Booth.  "Nonplus."  And you think you can talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.
    "Shower."
    You stupid, fucking runt.  Stop with the fucking words.  No, I
will not lose to this crazy sonofabitch who thinks that a man who died
in 1865 can quote a man who was born in 1915.  "Road."
    "Death."
    You think you're an assassin.  Of course you're going to say
death.  Don't think you can fool me.  "Hew."  Even if you do know what
I've done, there's no way you can prove it.  Who'd believe a crazy fuck
like you.
    "Wife."
    Holy shit, you do know.  The crazy fuck knows.  Well there's no
way you can prove it.  "Entity."
    "Yellow."
    I'm not yellow, you little shit.  I'm the most courageous man on
the face of the planet.  I'm alone in the same room as a man who is
proud to think he's an assassin.  "Wasp."  Not many men would take that
chance.  And I'm not even scared.
    "Phallus."
    You pervert.  And that just proves you have no clue, it was only
blind luck.  "Ski."
    "Inheritance."
    Yeah, that's why I did it, so what.  I only think you're playing
with me, but you have no idea of what you're saying.  "Epithet."  You're
just trying to win this stupid game.
    "Trial."
    There will never be a trial, you dumb fuck.  "Loop."  And even if
there was, I'd get off scott free.
    "Police."
    Are you kidding?  The police are stupider than you are.  They
actually consoled me when it happened.  "Era."  The stupid fucks
consoled my wife's murderer.
    "Arrest."
    No way, sonny.  It has been five months, and they've gotten
nowhere.  They think she committed suicide.  "Trapeze."  They are NOT
going to arrest me.
    "Ewe.  E-W-E."
    "Earth."  See, you have no idea.  I'm the only one who know's and
I will NEVER confess.
    "Hammer."
    "How the hell do you do it?!?  Yes, I killed my wife, Lee.  Yes I
knocked her out with a hammer.  Yes I cut her with a poison razor.  Yes
I put her in the shower to look like suicide.  Yes I did it to collect
all of her fathers inheritance.  Yes, yes, yes!!!!"
    Kibo was gone.  I slumped in my chair.  It was now a matter of
them believing a crazy wanna-be assassin or a distinguished doctor.  I
still had nothing to worry about.  Even when the officer was reading me
my rights I knew I was still invincible.

                               * * * * *

    The sergeant was sitting across the table from me asking me
questions, and I was telling him the same old bullshit.  The
accommodations weren't bad considering I was under arrest.  Of course
they would have to release me soon, they had nothing on me.  Just the
testimony of some crazy patient at the U/Mass Medical Center.  I had
nothing to worry about.  After all, my profession was minds, and I knew
the police believed me, and thought the crazy fuck, was just that, a
crazy fuck.  The cop was just going through the motions as he asked me
if I had killed my wife, if I had confessed in that office, and even
what I thought of the mental stability of my accuser.  That was the
fingered me.  They did not think that I had done it.
    A buzzer sounded and the sergeant picked up a phone.  He listened
a moment.  "Send him in," he said into the phone, and turned to me as he
hung up.  "The chief is coming in."
    The door opened and the chief came in.  "We have no evidence to
hold you Dr. Byck.  I'm sorry this all happened.  Apparently the
arresting officers were unaware that your accuser was a patient, and
quite frankly we are desperate to find an explanation for your wife's
death, so. . ."
    He let it drop there.  "Oh, it really is quite alright," I said.
"I understand, and I wish I knew the truth about my wife's death.  No
hard feelings."
    "One thing though, Doctor," the chief continued.  "We found this
audio cassette in Kibo's pocket.  It seems to be a musical play of some
sort.  I'd like for you to listen to it a moment."
    The speakers in the room started to crackle from age.  A raspy
sound started to emanate from them.  "Yes, I killed my wife, Lee.  Yes I
knocked her out with a hammer.  Yes I cut her with a poison razor.  Yes
I. . . ."  Two officers restrained me as I tried to bolt from the room.
    "There is one more thing, Dr. Byck," the chief said.  "I'd like to
introduce you to Detective Giuseppe "Kibo" Zangara."  The door opened
and there stood Kibo, the crazy fuck who had cornered me.
    "Why, Kibo, why did you fuck me over?"
    "'I did it to bring down the government of Abraham Lincoln and
avenge the ravaged south. . . . `"*


* The speech meant to emulate John Wilkes Booth is taken from the
musical Assassins by Stephen Sondheim and John Weidman

                            **QUIZ**

1) How should Kibo's name be pronounced?
   a) Sauerkraut
   b) Who the fuck cares?
   c) Both

2) Why wasn't there any sex in the story?
   a) To piss off the people in alt.sex.stories
   b) Who the fuck cares?
   c) Both

3) Does Kibo exist?
   a) Yes
   b) No
   c) Both

C Squared
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11228 alt.alien.visitors:8553 sci.skeptic:29075
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 21:00:01 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 44

     Subject: Kelvin's UFOs.
             In the past I had a teacher or Guru who taught me
     many things.  In one of our conversations he told me about
     a man by the name of Kelvin Rowe, who lives down in Southern
     Calif. in a town called San Jacinto.  Merle (my teacher)
     mentioned quite a few things about Kelvin and that he had
     written a book called "A Call At Dawn" explaining how he
     had taken rides aboard space crafts from other planets.
             Kelvin is a retired heavy equipment operator (he
     drove catapillar tractors).
             After first hearing about Kelvin I exchanged a couple
     of letters with him and about 15 years later I finally
     set up an interview with  him.  By this time he is 82 years
     old but in good condition, but a little slower than he used
     to be.
             He then told me that he had contacted some space
     people near his home and he was taken on a lot over 200
     rides.  One of the many unusual things about Kelvin is that
     he was never able to bring any other  person along with
     him on his space craft trips.  He also said that at no time
     was he ever taken to another planet to land.  He was taken
     very close but never to another planet.
             When I was about to leave after interviewing him he
     came out with a statement that a lot of people tell me.
     The statement was "I could tell you something that probably
     you wouldn't believe".  His statement was that during his
     many trips aboard the flying saucers they finally taught
     him how to walk through a metal wall about 4 inches thick
     with his clothes on and come out the other side of the wall.
     I then told him my teacher Merle had told me about the fact
     that he (Kelvin) could do this thing so I was not too surprised.
             In my talking  with Kelvin I was informed that his wife
     had written the book about Kelvin's experiences.  Some of
     the space people even worked in the local grocery store in
     the past and his wife said she could recognize them as they
     drive down the road in front of her house.
             One way you could tell if they were space people is
     that they could walk into as room with the doors closed.
     So it looks like these people look like us.
     These space people were very attractive looking and sere from
     the planets Pluto and Jupiter.
             I'll leave you with this saying; One man or woman with
     makes a majority.
             That's all for now, John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 21:05:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 38

     Subject: Alien Races.
             While reading the book called "UFO, From Venus I Came by
     Omnec Once some statements were made about different
     civilizations, races here on Earth and where these races
     came from.
             Here's a quote from her book, "I must advice you not
     all UFOs that are seen  by people on earth are from our
     Brotherhood of Planets, or even from our solar system.  Some
     are actually astral lights and interdimensional entities,
     and some are unknown to us.  Some come from great distances.
     The whole picture is very complex, but there have been a
     great number of landings and contacts by our people."
             A black race evolved in the Jupiter system.  These are
     the tall, royal looking people, with broad faces and square
     jaws.  Their hair is deep glistening black and their eyes
     are purple to violet.  The Jupiterians are also known for
     their beautiful voices and open sharing nature of being.
     Descendants are in Africa and other parts of the world.
     (I've also found that a race of black people know a lot
     about Sirius the dog star and speak of a double star that
     rotates in a cycle of about 50 years.)
             You might wonder how Omnec's life was here on Earth
     after she came from Venus to live here. She didn't tell
     anyone that she was from Venus until she grew up.  In the
     Earth families  that raised her, her stepfathers were dire
     punishment she had to learn to endure.  One raped her when
     she was fourteen and the second at sixteen, while holding a
     loaded gun to her head.  She didn't feel too bold or heroic
     in trying to resist because he had already shot her in the
     arm and she didn't feel it was time to die.
             Omnec was also brought up in a very strict atmosphere
     of a church where one of the young men rose to prominence,
     Elvis Presley.
             I'll leave you with this saying;  You can go through
     more trials and tribulations on this Earth in one lifetime
     than you can on a utopian type planet in 1,000 years.

        That's all for now, John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:13:02 GMT
References: <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rick Pavek) writes:
[...]
>
>Here's the assertion.  At least two or more Crop Circles were known to
>have been caused by Earthlings.  Ergo, they all must have been.
>
>I say "Prove it".

Rick - what sort of proof would be acceptable to you?  It's a very difficult
thing to prove.  The closest I could come would be to demonstrate how to make
circles very similar to the ones in dispute (assuming I had such knowledge -
I don't, I'm just a casual observer).  Does that prove to you the other
circles were created by humans?

What proof can be offered in _any_ regard as to the origin of an existing
object?  No matter how convincingly I can imitate it, you can always say,
'But you didn't prove that's how _this_ one was done'.  James Randi runs
up against this all the time.

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:36:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>What would you consider as proof?
[Unresponsive answer deleted]
>And it was a rhetorical question, anyway.
[...]
>And I still haven't seen the "proof", nor has anyone offered to show it to me.

Rick - which is it?  Do you want an answer, or don't you?  It seems to me
you want it both ways.  You demand proof.  We ask what proof is acceptable.
You respond by saying 1) it was a rhetorical question and 2) we lose because
we haven't offered proof.

Either you honestly want proof, and define what constitutes proof, or you
admit your demand was unfair, and withdraw the challenge.  But you can't
have it both ways.

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:46:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rick Pavek) writes:
[...]
>Yes, mine was a rhetorical question.
>
>And my point, all along, is that while some of the circles have apparently
>been made by men, no one has yet to prove that men made all of them.
                              ^^^
Again, Rick wants to have his cake and eat it too.  He wants his challenge
to be declared 'rhetorical', requiring no response - but he continues to
imply he has won the challenge.

Rick, if your point is simply that one cannot 'prove' the origin of all the
disputed circles, fine.  But you seem also to be saying that lack of such
a proof is our (the skeptics') fault.  Either the challenge is inherently
unanswerable (rhetorical), or it does in fact have a solution.  Which is it?

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:13:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>My teacher and Guru had a hillbilly friend that wore overalls from
>Missouri by the name of Buck Nelson.

No foolin'?  His overalls were named Buck Nelson?  :-)

    RA

(sorry folx - it's been a long day)
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8559 alt.conspiracy:17795 alt.activism:31281 sci.skeptic:29077 misc.headlines:23618 alt.politics.bush:3069
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!bcannard
From: [e-mail] (Bob Cannard @ PCB x5565)
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Originator: bcannard@hppcb36
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 04:34:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>       <[e-mail]>        <[e-mail]>      <[e-mail]>         <[e-mail]> <VINOrganization <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: hppcb36.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics
Keywords:
Followup-To:
Lines: 19


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (ken bell) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
|> >massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
|> >you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
|> >that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
|> >used guns to commit more robberies etc.
|>
|> Probably because their penal systems are better than ours.

One thing to think about: the British police don't routinely carry guns, but
the gun locker is opened if they believe they are dealing with a gun-totin'
criminal. This may be enough to deter some from using the things, whereas
in the US they're going to get shot anyway so what the hell...
--
[e-mail]         "Human beings? ... Well, I suppose they are a
                                 form of life, even if they are unspeakable"
Exprssed opinions are not necessarily those of Mentor Graphics Corporation.
Xref: icaen alt.prose:2006 alt.religion.kibology:3496 alt.sex.stories:1404 alt.alien.visitors:8560 comp.os.coherent:4994
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors,comp.os.coherent
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!kakadu2!carl
From: [e-mail] (Carl_Ivan BREWER)
Subject: Re: Story about Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Kibo
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 05:38:12 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (C Squared) writes:
>                            **QUIZ**
>
>
>2) Why wasn't there any sex in the story?
>   a) To piss off the people in alt.sex.stories
>   b) Who the fuck cares?
>   c) Both

there wasn't ???


 Annal  Natrach, Usthvah Spethed,         [e-mail] (IRC: Bleve)
 Dochoel Dienve                           [e-mail]
                      [e-mail]
 Merlin, where are you?  Call your dragon, to weave a mist...
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 07:58:12 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 17

Sheesh... I know it may sound heartless and cruel and all...

But why, if we have mental patients posting to the net, can't we have any
INTERESTING mental patients posting to the net?  I mean, where are the Van
Goghs of this century, creating brilliant works of art through tortured
minds...  This stuff reads like low-grade science-fiction.

I guess it says something about the times we live in...


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the missing link
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:17:01 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 35

> Garland O Burton writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Posted: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:44:4
>
> Org.  : The Ohio State University
>
> did anyone ever stop to think that we are all aliens to this planet?
>
> thousands of years ago primatives could have been cross bred with our
> ancestors from afar.  "missing link?" you say.  were the dinosaurs
> erradicated
> before the experiment began for any certain reason?  what do our ancestors
> from afar think of what we've done to the planet up to now?  when will they
> think
> their experiment has gone far enough?  are hussein and kadaffee(sp?) the
> pinacle of the species?  was hitler?  cindy crawford?


Hey, I know *I'm* an alien!

(And to prove it, I'm going to go make some crop circles, clone Gary Stollman's
parents, teach my pet rock to sing, and breed a colony of invisible fish.  Then
I'm going to abduct everyone who reads alt.alien.visitors)

Hey! You can't PROVE I'm not who I say I am!


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8563 alt.conspiracy:17810
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 08:11:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Summary: Some more about what has happened over the years...
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman
Lines: 106


This all started back in 1981, when I was attending school at Tallahassee
Community College...I had just come back from my sister's wedding in New
York when wierd things started happening...I started getting phone calls
from people asking for the same person over and over, which continued even
though I told them I wasn't her...At one point, I called the operator to
complain, and get this now...She says, "Well, can't you remember who that
is?"..."Come on, give it a try!"...That was the first indication that
something was screwy in Denmark...Then, I had my mom ship my records and
stereo to me from LA..The UPS delivered one package, but one was
missing...I called my mom, and I instantly knew something was amiss...Her
voice sounded labored and extremely worried, and it sounded like somone
was standing there while she was talking, watching her or something...She
told me that the other package had been delievered downstairs to another
apartment, and to go down and ask them for it...I went downstairs, and
this wierd looking Hindu guy answered the door...I peeked in, and the
place looked like some kind of Bordello...He was nice about it though, and
handed me my package...

When I went back upstairs and called my mom, she seemed to be overly
relieved that I had gotten the package ok...I sensed tenseness in her
voice, but didn't know what it could be from...I forgot something
important...I am tired and it is late, so I am not gonna rewrite
this...Before I went downstairs, my mom told me to call UPS and see if
they had the package...They don't list a local number in information for
UPS in Tally, but the information operator gave me the 800 number for the
office in Jacksonville...After he read off the number he says REAL LOUD,
"And that's a TOLL FREE number!!"...He made it sound like he KNEW all
about the fact that the previous time I had been in Tallahassee, the first
time, I moved into an apartment which had a phone already installed in it,
which somebody had hooked up illegally...I used the phone then to call all
over the country, cause it wasn't showing up on my bill...Then, one night,
the operator caught me, and I hung up quickly...I didn't ever use the
phone again, but later on, after I left Tally, the phone company there
called all over the country to try to find me to make me pay for the
charges...They called my whole family and everybody I had called during
that time...It turned out ok, cause my sister in New York convinced them
that I wasn't responsible, and they dragged the guy who was into
court...But when this smart-alak information operator said that to me, in
a tone of voice that made me suspicious of everything that had been
happening, I knew I was playing with fire!!

Then, my dad called me one night just before I entered classes at TCC, and
said one of the wierdest things I had ever heard...He asked me if I
remembered the time when we had stayed at some hotel with fancy marble
staircases and crystal chandaleirs...I didn't know what the FUCK he was
talking about!!  I told him we had never been to any such place in our
lives, and asked him what the hell was going on...Then his voice went REAL
low, and he told me that it was ok, and not to worry about it...But I WAS
worried, VERY worried!!  Some kind of serious bullshit was going on with
my parents and the phones, and I didn't know what to think or do...

I got mad and decided to have it out with the phone company and find out
what the hell was going on...I went over to their office, and sat down at
some phone company "representative's" desk...She was REAL nice at first,
and told me she would find out what was happening...She called a number
downtown, and started speaking to someone...She was right in the middle of
the conversation, when suddenly, she looked right at me and shouted, "Do
you know Carol Lewis!!??"...I was startled and told her no...Then she
practically screamed at me, "Do you know where she IS, Gary!!??"...I said,
fearfully, "Well, she's not THERE!!"...Then she hung up the phone, became
SWEET as a lamb, and said, "All right, Mr. Stollman.  We'll take care of
the problems you've been having!"  I thanked her and left...With the
knowledge that whatever was going on was so big, it involved the taking
over of the phone company completely...

Carol Lewis was the name the people who called me asked me for, and it was
later that I remembered why it sounded familiar...I have almost a
photographic memory, and during a previous time in the past, when I was
traveling around the country, I had stopped at a motel somewhere in the
pouring rain...Some guys came in right after I did, and they looked like
the kind of enemies of mine who had been following me all over the country
for years...They walked in and used the phone in the lobby to call a
number...While on the phone, one of the guys asked someone if they had a
Carol Lewis staying there, apparently a hotel or motel...Then he changed
the name slightly and asked if they had a Carol Lewison, or something like
that...He kept on using aliases, until he had exhausted his supply...Then
he and the other guys stood around while I checked in...When I took my
room key, one of the guys stood next to me watching to see what room it
was...When I got up to the room, everything was ok for awhile...But, a few
minutes later, I heard the guys in the room next to me, and it sounded
like they were tearing the walls apart...I was NO stranger to this
happening, as these assholes from California had been following me all
over the country for years...I packed up my stuff, and went down and told
the manager to call the police, that these guys were NUTS!!  He did so,
and gave me another room...

It took me a couple of years to remember that, but it was the same
name...When I gave that name to the FBI in Atlanta some time later, the
girl at the desk picked up a phone, gave them the name, and a few minutes
later she wrote down on a piece of paper dates and prisons that person had
been in, then told me they couldn't help me...She told me that two
"AGENTS" would help me, and two guys who didn't look anything like FBI
agents came out and asked me if I had a place to sleep for the night...I
went to the FBI in Tally for help, but got the runaround there also...I
don't know how we can fight this thing, but fight it we MUST!!

I will write more tomorrow, I didn't get enough sleep last night, and it
is very late...Take care, humans!

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: So much romanticism. Its bullshit. bout time we faced facts.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 09:10:48 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 39


One or two me remember me from alt.atheism and my
comment about *the wanker* and his beloved uranium. Go read it the
come back, if you havent already.
(edt sux)
The proof of the existence of aliens I was referring to,
it's us, naturally. This one should be inAlt.athiemsXXXXX
alt.atheism too, but my editor sux and I am just getting
the hang of this.
anyway, why should one insignificant planet near one
insignificant star etc etc etc one can only surmnise
that aliens do exist and the proof is our own existance.
Whats this got to do with alt.altheism? I ma not so closed-minded
tthink that we DEFINETLY WERENt created, but I
refuse to believe that a single evelasting allpowerful
entiytytyXX entity would create a tiny planet etc for the
simple (and romanticaly cute) reason of love. I do beliebe
that there is every possibility that we are the ceation of
another race of beings, types just as fallible as every other
living thing I've met. There's proof for that too! Our
very own scientists are capable of creating totally new lifeforms from old
ones,
(kinda blows out that stupid argument about the bird and a plane &
their complexity).


Aliens do exist. They probably have been here before, and if they are around at
the
moment, I think they are having a basll laughing at our antics and questions
about their existance.

Also, for what possible reason would aliens with superior technology
always go straight for hte AAmerican guvmint, hmmmm? Why not Brittish ,
Australian etc,
and what possible reason would our governments have for concealing it.(to get
here implies superior technology)

Anyway, I don't really care if aliens exist or not provided it doesnt
affect my daily alife, and at the moment, it doesn't even get a lookin.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8565 alt.conspiracy:17816 alt.activism:31295 sci.skeptic:29094 misc.headlines:23630 alt.politics.bush:3093
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!chalmers.se!etek.chalmers.se!etek.chalmers.se!lindq
From: [e-mail] (Johan Lindqvist)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 11:35:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>       <[e-mail]>        <[e-mail]>      <[e-mail]>         <[e-mail]> <VINOrganization
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Johan Lindqvist)
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, SWEDEN
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (ken bell) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
|> >massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
|> >you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
|> >that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
|> >used guns to commit more robberies etc.
|>
|> Probably because their penal systems are better than ours.

Well, first of all, who is 'we' ?   ("....better than ours.")
Swedish? (Since you post from Sweden.)

And what do you mean? What penal system is better than wich, and why?

______________________________________________________________________________
Johan Lindqvist                     |Due to lack of interest, tomorrow
Gothenburg         Mail:            |has been cancelled.
Sweden      [e-mail]  |
______________________________________________________________________________
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11231 alt.alien.visitors:8566 sci.skeptic:29095
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 06:20:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Rock Racers: With the help of Jeff I was able to post the last
information from a floppy disk from my son's home computer. Their are
some obvious mistakes and omitted words but be patient with me.
I'll try to do better.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Subject: Plants DO Contain crystals!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:35:00 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11
Lines: 17

I'm no biologist, but I took Botany whilst
an undergrad here at the "U", and in Botany Lab
we peered (via the microscope) at calcium oxalate
crystals in plant cells; there are two types---
needle-like "raphids" and pretty rosebud-like
"druses" (yes, "druses", NOT "drusi" as you'd
expect the plural to be). My botany instructor,
Dr. Egan, told us that it's the needle-like raphids
that cause the seriuos damage when tots eat the
leaves off the houseplants; the relatively
insoluble calcium oxalate needles act like glassy
little daggers which play absolute Hob with the
child's digestive-tract lining.

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Where Alot of us Think Gary Stollman is a Raving Fool
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Subject: K2 Transmissions--"Whistlers", Maybe?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:50:50 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11
Lines: 11

Is it possible that the bizzaro noises supposedly
heard were atmospheric "Whistlers" from distant
lightning-strikes?  The latest issue of "Science Probe"
magazine discusses their origins and detection, and
the descriptions of the noises they make sound sort
of similar to what the K2 people describe.  I admit,
though, the article says that they are best heard in
the Kilocycle range.

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8569 alt.paranormal:5650
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:52:19 GMT
Lines: 140

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes in part:
|> ...she was called every
|> wednesday by something, somebody or someone that would "gab" for quite some
|> time in some strange "tounge" and then hang up. This happened the entire
|> time she was carrying her first child, >27 times.
[...]
|> I figure there are a couple
|> explanations for the lack of a recording:
|>
|> 1) Kathy just never really thought of it. Some people live life without
|>    a reaction to anything or anybody.
|>
|> 2) Its a possibility "the aliens" programmed her not to record the stuff.
|>    According to INTRUDERS abductees are pretty much controlled by the
|>    abductors.
|>
|> 3) It could all be a sham and never happened. Thats why recordings were never
|>    mentioned.
|>
|>
|>  One common thing I see is the "wet noodle" approach these abductees tend to
|>  have toward life and living. Could be the "aliens", if they exist, choose
|>  these type of people so it is easier to control them. Sorry, I can't live
|>  like that. Could be too that all this abduction stuff is fake and the
|>  "wet noodle" approach is an easy way to avoid substantiating the claim.
|>
|> Gregg.

Quite.  Clinical psychologists would see a person with such a "wet noodle"
approach to life as possibly having a problem, depression, perhaps, or
a very troubled marriage/family.  The correlation of these "symptoms"
to the pregnancy would be seen as possibly VERY significant.

A clinician would also investigate the following possibilities:

  -some HUMAN was harrassing her (related to the pregnancy).
  -the calls were made up after the fact (perhaps as a symptom of
   psychological problems).
  -the calls were self-created, hallucinations or conversations with
   herself (perhaps as a symptom of psychological problems).

In each case, the clinician would then ask, "What is really going on?"
Is there a lot of family or psychological stress that is leading to the
reports?  Is there some personal or interpersonal drama being played out?
Is there abuse or pressure?  Is this baby coming at a bad time?
Is the family under financial or other stress?

Since people often have severe psychological stress and doubts
during pregnancy, and families are often stressed by pregnancy, most
psychologists would not leap immediately to the alien abduction hypothesis
when presented with evidence of psychological symptoms in such a situation.

I would also note that reputable clinicians would probably try to "dry
out" the noodle a bit, and try to start up a bit more active resistance
toward adversity.

Note that I am NOT claiming that these things are what was going
on with Kathy.  I am indicating some possible hypotheses that should
have been checked on.

One of the big problems I have with abduction enthusiasts is that
they tend to leap to their favorite hypothesis (abduction) without
considering other possibilities.  And once convinced, they indoctrinate
the victim in their view.  This is not likely to really help the
victim if some of the possibilities above were the real story.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Distribution: world
Followup-To:
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
|> >
|> >   Also remember that some "abduction victims" claim that it is a
|> >   repeated or regular occurence or that it's still happening to
|> >   them.  It would not be that hard to rig up their house to record
|> >   events in it.  Turn on a videotape loop every night before going
|> >   to bed.  Maybe prepare the ground outside to mark footprints.
|> >   Set up automatic video or camera equipment around the house
|> >   to record people (beings, whatever) going in and out.  Et cetera.
|> >   Use a little imagination.
|> >
|> >
|> >---peter
|> >
|> >
|> >
|>
|> This is what gets me about this whole abduction thingy. I will restate the
|> fact that I am middle ground on this. I believe that the abduction are
|> happening but don't know what is causing them. It just kills me though in
|> some of the non-hypnotically induced recollections of Kathy Davis
|> (the central figure in Budd Hopkins' book INTRUDERS) she was called every
|> wednesday by something, somebody or someone that would "gab" for quite some
|> time in some strange "tounge" and then hang up. This happened the entire
|> time she was carrying her first child, >27 times.
|> (Forgot to mention, the call would be made at 3:00 in the afternoon each time)
|> A couple times she wasn't home and her mother would answer and hear it.
|> One ofher friends heard it. This happened in the middle of a bunch of
|> other claimed abduction incidents.
|>
|> Now, pardon me, but if somebody calls me every week for 9 months on the same
|> day at the same time, the third of fourth time is gonna go on tape! Just
|> drives me crazy to read that part of the book. I figure there are a couple
|> explanations for the lack of a recording:
|>
|> 1) Kathy just never really thought of it. Some people live life without
|>    a reaction to anything or anybody.
|>
|> 2) Its a possibility "the aliens" programmed her not to record the stuff.
|>    According to INTRUDERS abductees are pretty much controlled by the
|>    abductors.
|>
|> 3) It could all be a sham and never happened. Thats why recordings were never
|>    mentioned.
|>
|>
|>  One common thing I see is the "wet noodle" approach these abductees tend to
|>  have toward life and living. Could be the "aliens", if they exist, choose
|>  these type of people so it is easier to control them. Sorry, I can't live
|>  like that. Could be too that all this abduction stuff is fake and the
|>  "wet noodle" approach is an easy way to avoid substantiating the claim.
|>
|> Gregg.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 14:05:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36

[e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:

>Sheesh... I know it may sound heartless and cruel and all...

>But why, if we have mental patients posting to the net, can't we have any
>INTERESTING mental patients posting to the net?  I mean, where are the Van
>Goghs of this century, creating brilliant works of art through tortured
>minds...  This stuff reads like low-grade science-fiction.

>I guess it says something about the times we live in...


>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
>it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
>---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
>He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
>The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre

*****
It says NOTHING about the times we live in...It "reads" like it does
because it is the TRUTH!!  And you insinuate that I am a mental
patient...I resent that because I was FORCED into ALL those mental
hospitals by this government, which I am going to SUE TO HIGH HEAVEN, and
by enemies who can read minds, etc...YOU wouldn't have lasted five minutes
under the strain of what I have had to go through...I am PROUD that I
ain't some crazy artiste, or Hollywierd moviemaker...


--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29101 alt.alien.visitors:8571 talk.religion.newage:11233
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 07:50:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 109

RA says

>You're not getting off that easy :-).  The question I have is 'why do _you_
>believe some people (you?) have 3-strand DNA?'.

To clear things up it is 12 strands of dna which equate to the 12 chakras
of the human system.  I read our dna is 7.5 foot long (in a newspaper :-)
).  Anyway the point is that there could possibly be 12 strands in the 7.5
foot strand.  It makes a lot of sense when the chakras are considered.  It
also makes a lot of sense that only the first two are active or intact and
the rest are idle or scattered.  Which directly equates to why we only use
a small percentage of our mind. And why we have a society stuck in
survival.  Now the light encoded filaments could be a way to spiritually
alter the dna.  And it could be possible that new light energies are
hitting our light encoded filaments causing the dna to wakeup or activate.
It could also be possible that we are controlling the amount of light
entering our light encoded filaments by our supressed emotions,  our
beliefs,  our attitudes,  our feeling or lack of them, and a few other
factors.

Now for the important part,  belief!  Here goes,  I have been wanting to
communicate this to these groups for five years and keep getting distracted
by  non believers  :-). Belief is one of the primary resources we each have
for creating our own reality.  So since we create our own reality by our
beliefs,  this is one prime area where the observer effects the outcome.
The beliefs of the observer totally influences what is seen and perceived.
As an example,  I have said that all facts are nothing but petrified
beliefs.  There is a long list of facts, pertified beliefs that are
stopping science dead (or almost dead) in its tracks.  Now the nature of a
belief is that it is something we generate moment by moment.  So it is
fairly easy to change a belief.  Another characteristic of beliefs is that
they can be noticed and evaluated on a scale of limiting and unlimiting,
and a more unlimiting belief can be substituted for one identified as
limiting.  Now for another thing,  Thinking and believing is a third
dimensional, activity.  Knowing and feeling is a fourth dimensional
expression of the energy.  So I take a idea a ET shares with me and I think
and believe as if it were true and then I know and feel the results of it
being true.  If it feels good,  I may adopt the belief or I may look for a
more unlimited expression of the belief and go through the same cycle.  The
opposite of it is I know and feel when a belief is not appropriate,
usually in a microsecond.  When the feeling center is opened,  it is
immediately know when something does not feel good.  That is unfortunately
why so many people have their feeling center closed down.  Because day in
and day out they do things that do not feel good,  and feeling it would be
painful. Now the one thing I would like to get across to this net is that
not believing is believing.  Everything not believed becomes a brick wall
in ones mind and reality. What we imagine we are, our self image,  is the
result of our beliefs about ourselves.  Most of those beliefs were adopted
from outside ourselves.  One of the predominate beliefs on this planet is
that there is only one God and we are not it.  The next predominate belief
is in death. And that there is not any intelligence or life after death or
outside of bodies.  Let me tell you folks, no one has ever died and there
are incredible intelligences, not in bodies.  The Pleiadians suggest that
there are multitudes of bodiless entities showing up wanting to
communicate.  The one big mistake the school system is making, is not
making people learn to channel before they can graduate.

>Is it because an alien spoke
>through a channeler & told you so?

I have spent well over 1000 hours of being with and leaning from aliens (I
prefer to call them ETs) coming through channelers.  Many I have a
relationship with,  I can feel them as well as hear them.  I get inspired,
uplifted and become less limited from my contact with them.  But the
biggest thing is an expansion of my CONCEPT of reality,  which expands my
reality available to create. Another big thing about studying ETs is that
they answer and have answered all the questions I have come up with,  that
I could not find answers for from earth humans.

As far as dna changing that is blase among ETs.  In fact there is even a
book out called NEW BODIES,  NEW CELLS,  NEW LIFE!  edited by Virginia
Essene which has 12 channelers channeling entirely different entities each
explaining in their way how the dna is waking up, activating, evolving,
whatever you want to call it.  As I see dna scientists start to roar this
isn t what they told me is school.  I would like to suggest that even if
the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
our dna may not be physical it could be in another energy sprectum we have
not detected.

>Or is it because a geneticist or other
>qualified person examined the DNA & found it has 3 strands?

It sounds to me like you are saying that unless one of your high priests
okays it you are not allowed to think of it.  You know I made an attempt to
get some input on this very net.  Someone came on sounding like he knew
something about dna but wound up saying breathing could kill and had the
audacity to tell me not to do what I have been doing for the last 16 years.
And actually tried to warn,  scare, people away from what I do.  I really
hope,  someday, to find what I call fourth dimensional scientists to work
with on detecting and documenting the occurrence.  After all if I could
send my clients somewhere and they could get a readout of the status of
their 12 heli it would make my work easier.  I could even charge by the
heli that we are working on clearing and opening.  Actually it is so real,
to me,  that the dna is waking up that I consider the only ones who don t
know it are those hell bent on dying.

>OK - since you persist in saying that some people actually have 3-strand
>DNA (I don't care if it's everyone, 2 percent, or just one guy) - prove it.

I am proving it by doing it and living it.  The changes people are going
through by one hour of conscious breathing in my hot tub are so personal
and intense that I doubt if any would submit them for public examination.
But I am willing to do this.  I will give anyone reading this a one hour
FREE session in my hot tub ,  under a double pyramid, in San Jose, Ca. At
our mutually agreed upon time.  For those who feel threatened because I am
a male,  I have a female who will take you through the process.

Don Showen
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11235 alt.alien.visitors:8572 sci.skeptic:29110
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:23:22 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] writes:
:      Subject: Kelvin's UFOs.
[...]
:              That's all for now, John F. Winston.

That couldn't be the real John Winston, there were more that 25 lines
in a single post!

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I'm sitting on my SPEED
Rosemount Inc.                                |QUEEN..  To me, it's
                                              |ENJOYABLE..  I'm WARM..  I'm
[e-mail]                 |VIBRATORY..
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!zrz.tu-berlin.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:03:38 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>These excuses about why nobody gets physical evidence of "abductions"
>>are just a little too convenient -- sort of like the Christian Fundy's
>>excuses for fossils, carbon dating and other evidence which appears
>>to make the world seem older than 6000 years: being God, He made the
>>fossils and other evidence too.
>>
>>Excuses, excuses.
>
>What do you want? Photo's? You claim they're faked. Metal from the ship?
>It's turned up before, but seems to be lost now if the government gets
>wind of it. The only reason we don't have lots of evedence is because your
>and my taxes go to suppressing it.
>
>IF the Corona crash went to court, you could prove it happened. [..]

Excuses, as he said.  It's simple:  You give us proof, you get our belief.
Look at it as a business transaction.  You can't go into a supermarket and say,
"My credit card has turned up before, but seems to be lost now" or "The only
reason I don't have money is because of my taxes" or "IF I went to court, I had
money" and expect they give you anything for it.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!newcastle.ac.uk!tuda!nnpb
From: [e-mail] (Nigel.Bamford)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MUTILATIONS IN SWEEDEN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:47:18 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU
Lines: 76
Nntp-Posting-Host: tuda


The following is taken from the "Fortean Times" a British publication
which deals in strange happenings from around the world.

Sweedish horse ripping.

For two or three years, someone-or something-has been attacking and mutilating
horses and cows in western Sweeden. Around 200 horse attacks had been
reported to the police when the mystery was brought to national attention
by journalist Siewert Ohloms' TV programme "Svar direkt" on 25 Febuary
1992.

In the summer of 1989, the number of reports increased. In 90% of the
incidents, the victims were horses, almost always assaulted in the same
way. They were cut with a sharp, scalpel-like instrument,in or beside their
sexual organs. The wounds were often 30cm long, and five or six cm deep.
About 50% of the animals were so severely maimed that they had to be put
down.

Most of the attacks were near main roads, and the origional police
hypothesis was that a single madman or religious fanatic was motoring from
one enclosed pasture to another; then several horses seemed to have been
assaulted in different places at the same time, although this is not certain.
According to Marie Raden, police investigator in the Vanesborg district
it requires an astonishing knowledge of animals to be able to approach the
horses, and hurt them so badly, without causing them to offer resistance.
There were cases where watchdogs didn't react, even when they were only a
couple of yards away, nor was there any indication that the animals had
been drugged.

In August 1991, several horses were assaulted in the neighbourhood of
Fargelanda in Dalsland. It began when a mare, belonging to Marianne
Gothberg, was cut around the vagina. Another of Mrs Gothbergs' horses was
cut the following day, and a day after that a foal was found bleeding on a
neighbouring farm. More horses in the area succumbed, and some 40 farmers
formed a sort of equine "home guard". Pairs of farmers policed the roads
at night, armed with whatever weapons their farms could provide. They
caught a suspicious individual one evening, and turned him over to the
police; but he turned out to be a frightened bilberry picker who had lost
his way.

Tord Haraldsson from Alingas, who belongs to the investigating task force,
said that similar assaults in Denmark and the USA, have turned out to be
sectarian rituals, where fanatics have been drinking horses' blood to gain
strength. This is news to us; the widespread cattle mutilations accross
the American Midwest in the last two decades are variousley blamed on
cultists, aliens or government experimentation, but as far as we are aware
no actual proof has ever been found to back up any of these hypothesis.

Several farmers and horse breeders appeared on the TV program. They stressed
that several attacks had taken place almost in their presence, and couldn't
understand why their horses had submitted without offering resistance. The
perpetrator was like a phantomor a supernatural being. A vet said that the
attacker had a good knowledge, not only of animal behaviour, but also of
animal anatomy. Some of the wounds had been very professionally cut.

When the horses were turned out to pasture again after the winter, the
Fargelanda "home guard" were again mobilised, and others were organised
all over western Sweeden. The first mutilation of the year was reported
in "Expressen" on 14 April. A mare was found a t a place called Vitehall
near Kyrkekvarn, bleeding from wounds in her vagina and hind legs. A
"mysterious" red car driven by a young man sped away from the spot as the
mare was found; but it was not clear at the time of the report how the
wounds had been inflicted. The mare might have been kicked by another horse.




If anyone out there has any other info on animal mutilations, please e-mail
it to me, I am :

    [e-mail]

Thanks.

-Nige.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Rick Pavek Needs a Flame (was: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:55:38 GMT
Lines: 66

After stuffing my newsreader with dozens of articles containing things like
"Can you prove that the ALL of the circles WERE created by humankind?"
"Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans."
"Do you have any 'proof' that the circles were created by humankind?",
Rick Pavek tops himself with:

>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>
>Rick Pavek (me) said:
>>>I say "Prove it".
>>
>Then Keith said:
>>You can't "prove" that.  You can prove that an individual circle was created
>>by humans, but you can't with one sweep prove that every circle was create
>>by humans.  You are looking for a proof that does not exist.
>>
>>keith
>
>YES, YES, YES.  You've GOT IT!!!  BY GOLLY, YOU'VE GOT IT!!  THAT'S THE
>POINT!!  GIVE THAT MAN A CEEGAR!!  THA WINNA!!
>
>BINGO!
>
>Thanks Keith, we agree with each other.
>
>My point exactly.  And the corollary: You can't with one sweep
>(and one example) prove that because one was created by man, they ALL
>were created by man.

Every person with half a brain can see that you can't prove that!  Did you
really think you were the only one who *has* half a brain?  There's no need
for your rhetorical questions, thank you!  Especially not if you ask it
over and over again.

But you draw the wrong consequence.  When it is impossible to prove a thing,
while it IS possible to prove the opposite, the only sensible approach is to
*assume* (not conclude) the thing is correct and wait until the opposite is
proven.  Of course you can jump in a circle on one foot, cry "Prove it!
Prove it!" and remain in the "I don't know.  I wait for proof" region.
Look at this:

      All circles made by men:      Some not made by men:

Occam:    Assumes all circles are made    Perhaps some day it is proven.
    by men, waits until the        Occam changes position then.
    opposite is proven.  Opposite    Is right from then on, but was
    is never proven because it's    wrong before (with a mere
    wrong, so Occam is right the    assumption, and a plausible
    whole time.            one at that, so it doesn't hurt
                    much)

Pavek:    Doesn't know and never will    When it is proven, accepts
    have a clue.  Jumps around in    the explanation.  Is right
    circle crying "Prove it, prove    from then on, but had no clue
    it" till end of life.        before.

Thus you avoided being wrong.  Fine.  But you also avoided being right.
I don't see any superiority of your position but only an inferiority of
your arguments.
I will assume now that you have *exactly* half a brain, as you have done
nothing yet to prove you have more.


--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8576 alt.conspiracy:17827
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:22:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnum.convex.com
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
                             ...
>downtown, and started speaking to someone...She was right in the middle of
>the conversation, when suddenly, she looked right at me and shouted, "Do
>you know Carol Lewis!!??"...I was startled and told her no...Then she
                             ...
I think that Gary is trying to tell us that he has gone through the
looking glass.  And it's all the fault of Carol Lewis.

Are these postings riddles, Gary?
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Xref: icaen alt.prose:2007 alt.religion.kibology:3502 alt.sex.stories:1408 alt.alien.visitors:8577 comp.os.coherent:5017
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors,comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Story about Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:38:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 10


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (C Squared) writes...
>1) How should Kibo's name be pronounced?
    b) Who the fuck cares?
>2) Why wasn't there any sex in the story?
    b) Who the fuck cares?
>3) Does Kibo exist?
       Who the fuck cares?
OK, I give up, why is this in alt.alien.visitors?
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Harri P Pesonen)
Subject: Alien visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet pseudouser id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: vipunen.hut.fi
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Harri P Pesonen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:30:30 GMT
Lines: 24

Hello, I subscribed to this newsgroup a couple of days ago, because
I saw a fascinating (!) program about UFOs in our local telly.
It was an american program which covered all usual (?) facts (:-))
about extra terrestials, like Project Blue Book.

I was hoping to find more info about ETs on this newsgroup, but so far
the most interesting thing has been some weird story about mental
hospitals, called INVASION!!

Don't any of you have a real personal experience about UFOs?  If you do,
would you be so kind to share that with me.  At least, would you be
able to answer the following question:

Are there any alien visitors on earth or not?

Or better yet:

Are there any alien visitors on this newsgroup?


Thanks,
        Harri
--
Harri Pesonen, Helsinki, Finland, Europe?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11239 alt.alien.visitors:8579 sci.skeptic:29123
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:21:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 11

According to [e-mail]:
> These space people were very attractive looking and were from
> the planets Pluto and Jupiter.

Don't this guy and Stollman deserve each other?

Well?
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:25:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 16

According to [e-mail]:
>     Omnec was also brought up in a very strict atmosphere
> of a church where one of the young men rose to prominence,
> Elvis Presley.

I knew Elvis would be brought up eventually.

>     I'll leave you with this saying;  You can go through
> more trials and tribulations on this Earth in one lifetime
> than you can on a utopian type planet in 1,000 years.

As a writer, John makes a great reader.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!watdragon.uwaterloo.ca!jeeves.uwaterloo.ca!srnwhite
From: [e-mail] (Shannon White)
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:01:23 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
> I have a hard time believing this thread turned into a Cattle Mutilation discus
> sion, but Oh Well...
>
> I have read about plenty of ranchers who have lost cattle, met aliens, etc. Theyfirst start wondering what in the hell is going
>  on. Then they call the Sheriff,
> and in a number of the cases, the cops tell the people flat out: `ITs the work
> of extraterrestrails, and that's all the FBI will tell us".
>
> After that, some of the ranchers have spotted UFO's,and even been abducted or
> contacted. The literature is out there; I'm not writing a research paper,
> but it's out there, and anyone with a sincere interest in the subject such
> as myself has no problem finding it.
>
> Of course, many of our less esteamed freinds who don't read books on such
> "far out' subjects are predisposed to other viewpoints, but I'll ask you
> this:
>
> If it was the work of the US government, why wouldn't they raise the cattel
> themselves? Much cheaper than flying multimillion dollar helicopters
> around, which is the ONLY possible "other" explaination for all of this.
> Actually, when you read Alien Harvest, there is really little question
> as to what this phenomena is caused by. And the real question is what
> the greys are doing with the material they collect.
>
> The answer that that question is beyond the comprehension of most of
> the people here, so I'll save my findings (which are pretty deep)
> for another post.
>
> Jeff-
>

This business about the cattle mutilations has gone far enough.  I am a farmer
(although I am at school I still find time to help out on the farm) from
Southwestern Ontario (Canada).  The farms in that area are in the 500 acre
range, so they don't really compare to the ranches in the American midwest.

With >500 acres to take care of, no farmer can keep track of all that may
happen on their farm.  Farms are very large, and often spread out.  If
someone wanted to cross your land, you likely would never know about it.
Once we noticed a car parked next to one of our corn fields.  After it left,
we investigated and found that a patch of 2-foot high marijuana was being
grown in the middle of the field.  We were told by the police, this is
often done.  Cattle mutilations are not much of a step up from this.

Thus, the argument (put forward by previous posters) that farmers are somehow
omniscient within their farm just is not empirically true.

The greatest difficulties with cattle mutilations, is determining how the
cattle are abducted, without causing too much of a stir.  There is no reason
to bring in aliens for an explanation however.  Once a cow (or heifer, or
steer, or bull) is somehow immobilized, just put the cow in a truck (with
a winch), and haul it off to be bleeded.  Once done, dump the cow off in a
field somewhere.  You complain about tracks?  Well, a farm is covered with
tracks, so it would be difficult figuring which tracks are which, but the
biggest track coverer is the cattle themselves.  A few hundred 1000 pound
cattle will cover tracks in no time.

We once had a cow mutilated on our property.  I don't remember the particulars
(ie whether it was blood free or if any organs were taken), but there
was never any question that people had done it.  No tracks were found, but
this is not surprising - the cow was found in a ditch by the road.

Why would people do this?  Cultists have been mentioned in previous posts,
but you should also remember that people may do it for purely no reason.
People in the country and small towns can be just as sadistic as those from
the cities.  There are people that mutilate people, for some alien reason.
Surely there are those that mutilate animals.  After all, animals are easier
to get at.

That's all I have to say.

Shannon White
[e-mail]

Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29125 alt.alien.visitors:8582 talk.religion.newage:11241
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:23:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 238
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu



In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> RA says
>
> >You're not getting off that easy :-).  The question I have is 'why do _you_
> >believe some people (you?) have 3-strand DNA?'.
>
> To clear things up it is 12 strands of dna which equate to the 12 chakras
> of the human system.  I read our dna is 7.5 foot long (in a newspaper :-)
> ).  Anyway the point is that there could possibly be 12 strands in the 7.5
> foot strand.  It makes a lot of sense when the chakras are considered.  It
> also makes a lot of sense that only the first two are active or intact and
> the rest are idle or scattered.  Which directly equates to why we only use
> a small percentage of our mind. And why we have a society stuck in
> survival.  Now the light encoded filaments could be a way to spiritually
> alter the dna.  And it could be possible that new light energies are
> hitting our light encoded filaments causing the dna to wakeup or activate.
> It could also be possible that we are controlling the amount of light
> entering our light encoded filaments by our supressed emotions,  our
> beliefs,  our attitudes,  our feeling or lack of them, and a few other
> factors.
>


Note the "could". I could be the Queen of England , too.
STOP EATING MUSHROOMS !!!!

> Now for the important part,  belief!  Here goes,  I have been wanting to
> communicate this to these groups for five years and keep getting distracted
> by  non believers  :-). Belief is one of the primary resources we each have
> for creating our own reality.  So since we create our own reality by our
> beliefs,  this is one prime area where the observer effects the outcome.
> The beliefs of the observer totally influences what is seen and perceived.
> As an example,  I have said that all facts are nothing but petrified
> beliefs.  There is a long list of facts, pertified beliefs that are
> stopping science dead (or almost dead) in its tracks.  Now the nature of a
> belief is that it is something we generate moment by moment.  So it is
> fairly easy to change a belief.  Another characteristic of beliefs is that
> they can be noticed and evaluated on a scale of limiting and unlimiting,
> and a more unlimiting belief can be substituted for one identified as
> limiting.


This part, I can still understand, and even agree with.
Please define "limiting".

>Now for another thing,  Thinking and believing is a third
> dimensional, activity.  Knowing and feeling is a fourth dimensional
> expression of the energy.

Should have paid more attention at school.

 So I take a idea a ET shares with me and I think
> and believe as if it were true and then I know and feel the results of it
> being true.  If it feels good,  I may adopt the belief or I may look for a
> more unlimited expression of the belief and go through the same cycle.  The
> opposite of it is I know and feel when a belief is not appropriate,
> usually in a microsecond.  When the feeling center is opened,  it is
> immediately know when something does not feel good.  That is unfortunately
> why so many people have their feeling center closed down.  Because day in
> and day out they do things that do not feel good,  and feeling it would be
> painful.

For sure this kind of babling leads to dictatorship easily. Also ask a
serial killer what feels good for him.

>Now the one thing I would like to get across to this net is that
> not believing is believing.  Everything not believed becomes a brick wall
> in ones mind and reality. What we imagine we are, our self image,  is the
> result of our beliefs about ourselves.  Most of those beliefs were adopted
> from outside ourselves.  One of the predominate beliefs on this planet is
> that there is only one God and we are not it.  The next predominate belief
> is in death. And that there is not any intelligence or life after death or
> outside of bodies.  Let me tell you folks, no one has ever died and there
> are incredible intelligences, not in bodies.  The Pleiadians suggest that
> there are multitudes of bodiless entities showing up wanting to
> communicate.  The one big mistake the school system is making, is not
> making people learn to channel before they can graduate.
>

Sorry, this argumentation doesn't feel good to me. Rejected.
See, why bother with logical crap ? :)

> >Is it because an alien spoke
> >through a channeler & told you so?
>
> I have spent well over 1000 hours of being with and leaning from aliens (I
> prefer to call them ETs) coming through channelers.  Many I have a
> relationship with,  I can feel them as well as hear them.  I get inspired,
> uplifted and become less limited from my contact with them.  But the
> biggest thing is an expansion of my CONCEPT of reality,  which expands my
> reality available to create. Another big thing about studying ETs is that
> they answer and have answered all the questions I have come up with,  that
> I could not find answers for from earth humans.
>

I'd like to hear more about your expansion of your concept of reality.
It sounds absolutly fascinating (yawn).

> As far as dna changing that is blase among ETs.  In fact there is even a
> book out called NEW BODIES,  NEW CELLS,  NEW LIFE!  edited by Virginia
> Essene which has 12 channelers channeling entirely different entities each
> explaining in their way how the dna is waking up, activating, evolving,
> whatever you want to call it.  As I see dna scientists start to roar this
> isn t what they told me is school.  I would like to suggest that even if
> the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
> explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
> our dna may not be physical it could be in another energy sprectum we have
> not detected.
>

Here we are. Reminds me of the Winston's invisible fish.

> >Or is it because a geneticist or other
> >qualified person examined the DNA & found it has 3 strands?
>
> It sounds to me like you are saying that unless one of your high priests
> okays it you are not allowed to think of it.

NOT. You're allowed to think it, but obviously you'll have problems
exhibiting your 12-whatever DNA strand.

You know I made an attempt to
> get some input on this very net.  Someone came on sounding like he knew
> something about dna but wound up saying breathing could kill and had the
> audacity to tell me not to do what I have been doing for the last 16 years.


I probably know enough on DNA to answer any of your allegations.
Besides, there are BOOKS you know. Oh, they don't feel good ? Sorry.


> >OK - since you persist in saying that some people actually have 3-strand
> >DNA (I don't care if it's everyone, 2 percent, or just one guy) - prove it.
>
> I am proving it by doing it and living it.  The changes people are going
> through by one hour of conscious breathing in my hot tub are so personal
> and intense that I doubt if any would submit them for public examination.
> But I am willing to do this.  I will give anyone reading this a one hour
> FREE session in my hot tub ,  under a double pyramid, in San Jose, Ca. At
> our mutually agreed upon time.  For those who feel threatened because I am
> a male,  I have a female who will take you through the process.
>
> Don Showen

Why do all these weirdos live in California ??


JM.
























































































Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:26:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>That's about all that can be posted to the net.
That's my point.

Considering that you can't send proof through the net, I'd be willing
to look at your sources, newspaper and book citations.

What are your sources for believing that all the
crop circles were created by man alone?

My contention is that it's an assumption by you (and others) that men
created all of them.

>What would you accept as proof?

If you're trying to prove that any individual crop circle was created
by an individual, indeed that can be staged.  Most any proof would be
adequate.  If you've got a picture, VHS tape, etc, I'll provide you
my address.

For the concept that man created ALL of the crop circles...
I'll accept that if you can validate that, say 51% of the crop circles
since 1950 were created by humans, I'd accept that most of the crop
circles were created by humans.  Confessions, close examination of
the circles, photos of men making circles and other such proof would
be fine.  And others have pointed out you won't be able to prove they were
ALL created by man.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:28:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>>I'm digging for my info.  I'll let you know when I get it.
>
>I cannot say that I personally have verifiable evidence showing that the circl
>are hoaxes.  But, there was a guy that posted earlier stating that one of
>his friend had made some.  Do you believe him?
>
That's second hand and therefore not admissible as evidence.  A videotape
or photographic series would go a looong way, though.

Rick



--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:42:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 34
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>---One of the places that Buck was taken was a ten mile long bridge
>on the Moon. There is a crater near Mare Crisium and Mare Illium that
>can be seen by telescope best during the first 3 days of a new moon.
>At this time the shadows are just right so the bridge can be seen
>using a refractor type telescope using from 60 to 120 power. Many
>people like to mine rock from the moon because it has not broken down
>into gravel and soil as it has on most other planets. This bridge covers
>a crater 10 miles across and the people doing the mining use vehicles
>that hover about 3 feet or less off the ground, so it is better for them
>to go over the bridge to get from one side to the  other. A shift of work
>is about 3 hours.  That is why the lights come on and then off. John Winston
======================================================================
Mr. Winston,
  I don't normally do this but you are even getting pass my kill file.
This is like a virus that can't be eradicated. I first posted that article
about Transcient Lunar Anomalies over a month ago to try and see if any-
one else on the NET had seen or read anything about such events. There was
even a amateur photograph in Sky and Telescope about thirty years ago re-
garding this supposed bridge. I was also trying to shift some of the talk
to another topic rather the debate over crop circles, which is rather like
the one many years ago about how many angels could dance on the end of a pin.
I -don't- care. They can jitterbug or two-step, it makes no difference to
me. Also it wouldn't matter if it was a refractor or reflector or some kind
of astral lens (which wouldn't surprise me a bit in your case).If you want
me to believe in your little astral coffee klatch come and pay me a visit
that I am aware of some time. Look my address up in the cosmic phone book.
                    With more sincerity than you know,
                            Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Those Breakdancing Rocks.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:05:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 13
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Rock Hounds: Sticks and stones may bread my bones but those rocks
>keep on hunchings. It have not observed the movements of rocks personally.
>I have heard of people communicating with rocks. I personally prefer
>dogs or trees.
>John Winston.
======================================================================
What do you have when a rock takes a dump? Gravel???
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: John Lear info from Matrix (long)
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:15:17 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:

>From some of the evidence lt. is apparent that this surgery is accomplished in
>most cases while the victim, animal or human is still alive.
>
>The various parts of the body are taken to various underground laboratories
>one of which is known to be near the small New Mexico town of Dulce.
>This jointly occupied (CIA-alien) facility has been described as enormous
>with huge tiled walls that 'go on forever'. Witnesses have reported huge
>vats filled with an amber liquid with parts of human bodies being stirred
>inside.

Not just parts of humans:  The Web of Conspiracy,  posted last August
by Don Allen, goes further and says that on Level 6,  Nightmare Hall,
is to be found the Genetic Experimentation Lab.  I've managed dig out
this portion which makes for quite fascinating reading :

---

         THE WEB OF CONSPIRACY:  (PART 3)..."NIGHTMARE HALL"

     "Covertly, this research has been going on for years at Dulce
Labs.  Level No. 6 is privately called "Nightmare Hall," it holds the
Genetic Labs.  Reports from workers who have seen bizarre
experimentation are as follows:
     "I have seen multi-legged `humans' that look like half
human/half-octopus.  Also Reptilian-humans, and furry creatures that
have hands like humans and cries like a baby; it mimics human
words...also huge mixtures of Lizard-humans in cages."  There are
fish, seals, birds and mice that can barely be considered those
species.  There are several cages (and vats) of Winged-humanoids,
grotesque bat-like creatures, but 3-1/2 to 7 feet tall.  Gargoyle-
like beings and Draco-Reptoids."

     "Level 7 is worse:  row after row of thousands of humans and
human-mixtures in cold storage.  Here too are embryo storage vats of
Humanoids, in various stages of development.

     "I frequently encountered humans in cages, usually dazed or
drugged, but sometimes they cried and begged for help.  We were told
they were hopelessly insane, and involved in high risk tests to cure
insanity.

     "We were told to never try to speak to them at all.  At the
beginning we believed that story.  Finally, in 1978, a small group of
workers discovered the truth.


---


-Sean.

[e-mail] | [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:04:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Shannon White) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>>
>> Of course, many of our less esteamed freinds who don't read books on such
>> "far out' subjects are predisposed to other viewpoints, but I'll ask you
>> this:
>>
>> Jeff-
>
>This business about the cattle mutilations has gone far enough.  I am a farmer

    Simple minds are predisposed to simple answers.
    Like I said before, IF you have read Alien Harvest, it's pretty clear
    what is going on.   Linda Howe has no question in her mind, since she
    went around the country and compiled reports on over 15k mutilations
    of cattle around the world.

>With >500 acres to take care of, no farmer can keep track of all that may
>happen on their farm.  Farms are very large, and often spread out.  If
>someone wanted to cross your land, you likely would never know about it.
>Once we noticed a car parked next to one of our corn fields.  After it left,
>we investigated and found that a patch of 2-foot high marijuana was being
>grown in the middle of the field.  We were told by the police, this is
>often done.  Cattle mutilations are not much of a step up from this.
>
>
>The greatest difficulties with cattle mutilations, is determining how the
>cattle are abducted, without causing too much of a stir.  There is no reason
>to bring in aliens for an explanation however.  Once a cow (or heifer, or
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You see, that simply is not true, after you find out the particulars involved.
Lazer micro surgery and no cardio vascular colapse indicate a VERY high technological
capability in the majority of these incedents, and there are really only two
tenable explaintions. The government, the aliens, or both working together.
I stand corrected; that's three.

Jeff-

PS - Like I said before, the really interesting questions are Why does this go on,
and What is being done with the biological specimens being collected? Have any
of you ever heard of the mapping of the Human Genome?


>Shannon White
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mips!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!reed!henson!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ** How about a FAQ **
Keywords: FAQ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:18:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Lines: 71
Nntp-Posting-Host: darknova.acf-lab.alaska.edu

I've been reading this group for several months now and a sudden
inspirational thought hit me! (and the crowd groans) What this group
could use is a good old FAQ post every once in a while. I been here a
while and I still haven't seen any nicely condensed information about
the subjects that are discussed here. I'm willing to attempt to put
together a FAQ for this group; however I don't consider myself highly
knowledgeable in the area, So I'm going to be asking for a lot of
background info on some of the subjects brought up here.

But first what I could really use are some questions! I have
an idea already on some information that would be needed to
be included into the FAQ, but your input would be appreciated.

Here are some examples of what I would like to include in the FAQ:

Alien Groups:
  I would like to put out some condensed background on the
  different types of aliens discussed on this group.

          Greys: I have some information on these guys,
                 but I would like some more.
     Pleiadians: I have no information on these, any
                 background info would be of help.
            MIB: I have this area covered.
 Reptilian race: I don't know the name of them but i
                 have heard them talked about on this
                 group, any info would help.
         others: any other groups I didn't think of.

UFO Organizations:
  I currently have no information on any of these groups,
  if anyone has some background info, Phone Numbers, Mailing
  addresses or the Long titles for the below acronyms of the
  groups please send them to me.

 MICAP
 UFOROM
 MUFON
 SOBEPS
 BUFORA
 NUFON

Known and acclaimed UFologists's:
  maybe some short background info on some of the Major
  people discussed in this group, such as:

  Bud Hopkins
  John Lear
  others

Active UFO sights and locations:
  A current listing of locations that are suppose to be
  "UFO Active"

General Books that may be a good reference for people
interested in UFO's, and a List of new books out about UFO's

These are just some ideas that could be included in the FAQ.
Please send me any information on the above topics or other topics
and I'll organize it and stick it into a readable FAQ format if
there is enough interest generated.

                         [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: So much romanticism. Its bullshit. bout time we faced facts.
Message-ID: <k50m7z=[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:30:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>The proof of the existence of aliens I was referring to,
>it's us, naturally. This one should be inAlt.athiemsXXXXX

>anyway, why should one insignificant planet near one
>insignificant star etc etc etc one can only surmnise
>that aliens do exist and the proof is our own existance.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Not sure I really understood your entire post, but I would
say that this is one of the most coherent things I have read in this
group in weeks.


Jeff-
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11250 alt.alien.visitors:8591 sci.skeptic:29134
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:36:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 12

Kelvin dude.

JW lent me a video insterview with this guy. Very interesting stuff. He
seems like a perfectly normal sort, just getting on in years and not
really healthy anymore (Kelvin that is).

Thanks John. Your latest posts are very interesting, although I'm not sure
I understand the Kibo thing. YOu'll have to explain it to me personally.
Please post more of that stuff you have on disk. sure is nice to be
able to post it all at once now, huh?

Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Whitley Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 21:45:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>>Most abductees never talk about their experiences because people like you
>>call those experiences "obviously false" just because they took a ride
>>in the saucer, or claimed benevolent messages. Of the hundreds of known
>>cases, contactees generally have similar experiences, and this can be
>>correlated to abductees, whom generally have similar experiences as well.
>>
>
>  Talk is cheap (except on Usenet, Compuserve, etc).   But there are a
>  LOT more people who have claimed personal contact with God, or other
>  dieties and a LOT more books articles, and other written accounts
>  of such contact than there are of contacts with "aliens".  Yet I still
>  don't believe the former, so why should I believe the latter?   The
>  bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.
>
>
>---peter
>
  i gues the above attitudes of PLU's are why one of my favorite quotes is
by an MD and Surgon, Dr. Greer, who is also the founder of CSETI:
(paraphrased a little)

"I deal with science everyday, life and death stuff. And I'm here to tell you
UFO's and extraterrestrials are real; and just because Jon Q. Scientist says
there not only means he's a SPIRITUAL CRETIN."

Jeff-

>


Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29135 alt.alien.visitors:8593 talk.religion.newage:11253
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From: [e-mail] (David Gottner)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:52:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: davgot.auto-trol.com

>I am proving it by doing it and living it.  The changes people are going
>through by one hour of conscious breathing in my hot tub are so personal
>and intense that I doubt if any would submit them for public examination.
>But I am willing to do this.  I will give anyone reading this a one hour
>FREE session in my hot tub ,  under a double pyramid, in San Jose, Ca. At
>our mutually agreed upon time.  For those who feel threatened because I am
>a male,  I have a female who will take you through the process.
>
>Don Showen

What does this have to do with DNA?  And why is it important?

I have been doing breathwork, etc for about a year now, and the changes
have been pretty profound, but that doesn't prove that the DNA has changed.
All I can see is the outside.

I can see that my life is much better now, that I am more centered, that my
feeling centers are more open, etc, but I can't actually look inside of my
DNA structure and count the number of strands I have.

I don't see how relevant it all is anyway.  I want to be healed but I am
confused on why it is important to know all of the details.

I don't mean this as a flame, I am just seeking clarification.
--
Amrit Prem            |
[e-mail]        | This area is intentionally left blank
{...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!younam     |
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Tracks of the Unknown.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 21:58:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I found  this report of a cattle  mutilation in the Reader's
>Digest -  "Mysteries of the Unknown".   It differs from most
>reports  in  that  tracks  were left behind,   presumably by
>whatever was responsible for the attack.
>
>---
>TRACKS OF THE UNKNOWN
>
>A "mysterious trail of suction-like impressions"  caught the
>attention  of  the  cattle  inspector  and  law  enforcement
>officer investigating a typical case of cattle mutilation in
>        The  June  15  issue  of   _The_Albuquerque_Tribune_
>stated that the indentations were tripodlike, about 4 inches
>in diameter and 28 inches apart from each other.  The tracks
>terminated about 500 feet from the dead animal, according to
>the law officer,  "as if they had landed at that point, gone
>to the cow and then returned to that point."   The day after
>
>Has anyone heard of any other incidents in which tracks have
>been left behind ?
>
>-Sean.
>
>[e-mail] | [e-mail]

 I did'nt really think much of this post when I first saw
it, just didn't sound like anything I WAS AWARE OF (that's
allways a factor in how we interprete reality, isn't it?)

Anyway, last night I was watching a video about UFO's by
ARTHER C. CLARK no less; I think that should tell us
ALL something. (in a word "yes" he does believe
we are currently being visited by ET`s).

anyway, he went into some depth about a man whom had been
abducted by droid like robots that had TRIPOD like
bodys! I found that VERY interesting, and I thought you
would too. Got the video at Blockbuster, forget the name.
I'm sure they could find it for you.

Jeff-

 The truth is now being revealed to us if we'll only
have the eyes to see...


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (JCJ)
Subject: Re: the missing link
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunl18
Organization: Huh?
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:53:20 GMT
Lines: 19

[e-mail] writes:

>...
>were the dinosaurs erradicated before the experiment began for any
>certain reason?

What makes you think the dinosaurs were eradicated by an intelligent force?

>...  are hussein and kadaffee(sp?) the pinacle of the species?
No.

>was hitler?
No.

>cindy crawford?
No.

Samantha Fox?
Yes.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Subject: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:53:23 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11
Lines: 9

Why, Gary, NOBODY is accusing you of being a "crazy artiste"
OR a "Hollywierd" movie maker...Nobody at all.

We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Where Everyone Thinks Gary Stollman is a Howling Nut-Case
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29140 alt.alien.visitors:8597 talk.religion.newage:11255
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:48:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 85

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>RA says
>
>>You're not getting off that easy :-).  The question I have is 'why do _you_
>>believe some people (you?) have 3-strand DNA?'.

[a lot of semantically-null jargon deleted]

>>Is it because an alien spoke
>>through a channeler & told you so?

[about 20 lines which seem to say 'yes', along with a ridiculous suggestion
for public school curriculum change deleted]

and now the cop-out we were all waiting for...

>                                      I would like to suggest that even if
>the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
>explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
>our dna may not be physical it could be in another energy sprectum we have
>not detected.
>
>>Or is it because a geneticist or other
>>qualified person examined the DNA & found it has 3 strands?
>
>It sounds to me like you are saying that unless one of your high priests
>okays it you are not allowed to think of it.

'high priests'?  When your aliens give you the blueprints for a nuke reactor,
airplane, or anything more complex than the wheel, come back and try that
remark again.

>                                                     After all if I could
>send my clients somewhere and they could get a readout of the status of
>their 12 heli it would make my work easier.  I could even charge by the
>heli that we are working on clearing and opening.

You could also get a Nobel Prize for Chemistry, and maybe 3 or 4 other
subjects.

>                                                   Actually it is so real,
>to me,  that the dna is waking up that I consider the only ones who don t
>know it are those hell bent on dying.
>

That's me, hell-bent for DNA :-).

>>OK - since you persist in saying that some people actually have 3-strand
>>DNA (I don't care if it's everyone, 2 percent, or just one guy) - prove it.
>
>I am proving it by doing it and living it.  The changes people are going
>through by one hour of conscious breathing in my hot tub are so personal
>and intense that I doubt if any would submit them for public examination.
>But I am willing to do this.  I will give anyone reading this a one hour
>FREE session in my hot tub ,  under a double pyramid, in San Jose, Ca. At
>our mutually agreed upon time.  For those who feel threatened because I am
>a male,  I have a female who will take you through the process.
>
>Don Showen

I _gotta_ get out to San Jose!!  Is she cute?  Seriously, though - it seems
your intention in this posting is to dodge my challenge, and obfuscate things
as much as possible.  I made a simple request - provide objective evidence
that people exist who have 3-strand DNA.  Please reread the one section
of your post that even attempts to answer my challenge (both challenge
and response reprinted below).

>>OK - since you persist in saying that some people actually have 3-strand
>>DNA (I don't care if it's everyone, 2 percent, or just one guy) - prove it.

>                                      I would like to suggest that even if
>the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
>explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
>our dna may not be physical it could be in another energy sprectum we have
>not detected.

It seems you have a much different definition of DNA from the vast majority
of biologists and chemists.  Perhaps we need to come to an agreement on
what DNA is.  Please include a brief discussion on how DNA being 'non-physical'
is _not_ a contradiction in terms.

This post is way too long.  I hate long posts.  But you put out so much
nonsense here I had to respond to all of it.

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:00:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 60

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>That's about all that can be posted to the net.
>That's my point.
>
>Considering that you can't send proof through the net, I'd be willing
>to look at your sources, newspaper and book citations.

Considering that you can't send proof on the net it seems rather silly
to demand it.

>What are your sources for believing that all the
>crop circles were created by man alone?

See below.

>My contention is that it's an assumption by you (and others) that men
>created all of them.

No, this is your assumption. I have said nothing at all about crop circles,
except that they -have- been made by men before. Why is it that the
assumptions of others are important, and your own are not?

>>What would you accept as proof?
>
>If you're trying to prove that any individual crop circle was created
>by an individual, indeed that can be staged.  Most any proof would be
>adequate.  If you've got a picture, VHS tape, etc, I'll provide you
>my address.

I have no such proof, and could care less. It's about as valuable as proof
that humans can bake cakes, or do anything that humans do all the time.

>For the concept that man created ALL of the crop circles...
>I'll accept that if you can validate that, say 51% of the crop circles
>since 1950 were created by humans, I'd accept that most of the crop
>circles were created by humans.  Confessions, close examination of
>the circles, photos of men making circles and other such proof would
>be fine.  And others have pointed out you won't be able to prove they were
>ALL created by man.

I could care less really, I just pointed out that your demands were
absurd. Do you think that one extreme justifies another? Do you have
any evidence (opps -proof-) that crop circles were created by aliens?
Keep in mind that it does not follow that because "all crop circles
were not made by humans", they were made by aliens/spaceships/whatever.
The question of their origin is still open IMHO.

And I really doubt that you are in a position to provide what you
demand, -proof-. But you can always surprise me. :^)

>Rick
>--
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.

Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <s90m#f=[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:09:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>True, true, all true. However, the K-2 stuff says they used RDF to find
>the source and found in was being produced by a secret alien base. Personally
>I think it was produced with a very expensive sythesizer. Want a copy? I
>can't find any copyright infor on the tape or memo they sent me so I
>think I can legally send you a copy. Hmmmm...Maybe I should check with
>the Greys first. :> Contact me via e-mail if you want to hear it.

Do they say *how* they did their supposed RDF? Do they describe the
process?

The reason I ask is that doing direction-finding on the HF (shortwave)
band is not NEARLY as straightforward as people seem to think it
is. (Two reasons: you cannot "null out" a wave reflected off the
ionosphere in the same way you can a "direct" ground wave, AND the
signal may come from almost anywhere on the earth, which IS a sphere.
"Due east" on your flat map is NOT "due east" on the spherical earth.)
Some years ago I followed the efforts of some amateurs to DF certain
"numbers stations" (at least some of which are instructions from spy
HQs to agents "in the field"), and it was hilarious how many different
mistakes they made, and then were "sure" that they had identified the
source! (For you hams out there, the ARRL antenna book has a *few*
paragraphs describing the proper HF-RDF procedure, but since it is
so seldom done, they don't go into much detail at all.)

Assuming they didn't just make up the whole story about their supposed
DF efforts, my guess is that Phoenix' efforts were another "comedy
of errors", and that they're fooling themselves into thinking that
they know where these signals come from.



--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11258 alt.alien.visitors:8600 sci.skeptic:29141
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:19:19 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 43

     SUBJECT:  MEN IN BLACK . . .
      ok
        In the past , a certain number of people  often come arou nd , they
     ask people who see space crafts all sorts of questions, then after
     they  get the information they would threaten them with everything in
     the book , if they didnt shut up about the sighting. They were called
     "THE MEN IN BLACK"  because they wore black suits and drove black
     cars.  My teacher once told me not to attack them because they would
     just do away with  me.  He said that my elder  brothers would take
     care of them.  Due to the fact that  the information is comming out
     about them now, it seems that it should be  O.K. for me to repeat the
     information, so here goes;
        They are from the Sirus star system. Although  most of the "good"
     type beings are from  that system, such as Kadar,  they refer to the
     men in black's planet as a rather , unsightly planet;;  and from their
     frame of reference, they do not claim them to be their own, but they
     must acknowledge that they are, even within their dimension, located
     within our system.  They do have the ability to change alter their
     appearances, some-what,.
         Our U.S. government is now cooperating with the Sirians; and the
     question was asked,  what is the power that the entire government has
     to go along with them? They have weapon sources, (I must
     circumspect...) that are believed by the powers on this planet, to be
     absolutely dominating. In other words, the government believes they
     are looking down the barrel  of a very big gun. The Sirians are in the
     second dimension soon to go into the third.  We are in the third, soon
     to go into the fourth. The sirians are trying to prevent us from going
     into the fourth dimension.
        The negative Sirians are involved with these cattle mutilations
     because of their desire create a species that can perpetuate itself in
     the harshest of conditions.
        The people from Zeta Reticuli aren't doing the mutilations, but the
     "primative" Zeta reticulians, which are from (what we would concider)
     to be from the the past, (please don't ask me to explain! J.W) are
     helping the Sirians.
        One of the beings that was being interviewed while he was asleep is
     ccalled B'zal. You talk about a tough dude. . . He would make the
     worst person on earth look like Mr. Rogers.

        I'll leave you with this saying; A political expert is one who
     tells you what will happen tommorrow, then tells you why it did'nt.
        This is being posted for Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don.
     Don is not me.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <y90ma1=[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:14:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:

>Why, Gary, NOBODY is accusing you of being a "crazy artiste"
>OR a "Hollywierd" movie maker...Nobody at all.

>We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
>be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

>T.R. Stone
>University of Nebraska-Omaha
>Where Everyone Thinks Gary Stollman is a Howling Nut-Case
*****
Really...Hey, when was the last time the Cornhuskers won the National
Championship or the Orange Bowl, eh??
--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:46:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 99

     Subject: Encounters With Aliens.

     Back in the 1950s and 60s there were quite a number of  people from
     Earth who maintained that they had not ally seen flying saucers but
     had been invited aboard the craft and had taken trips aboard the craft
     from other planets.  These people received a lot of notoriety for a
     few years and even one of them spoke to a session of the US House of
     Representatives, had an audience with Queen Juliana of the Netherlands
     and with the Pope of Rome.

     These people as you know were called contactees because they were
     physically in contact with the entities in the space crafts.    These
     contactees got along pretty good until about 15 years ago  then a time
     of persecution started in which even till now we have been in  a of
     contactee bashing mode.  The more accepted UFO groups now nearly see
     red when the word contactee is even mentioned.  They think that these
     people  who say they have taken rides are liars, crazy and even worse.

     That would  be OK but  some of them have suddenly died of heart
     attacks and even old people have been found to have hung themselves.
     It appears that the more accepted  UFO groups are very open to
     checking out sighting, looking at crop circles but when any mention of
     your taking a ride on one of these devices is made your might as well
     leave  the group because your credibility with that group is of no
     value anymore (there are a few exceptions to this rule.)

     There is a good thing happening now though because the people  who
     were discredited in the past are now being listened to again.  In the
     recent UFO conference I attended in Phoenix this summer I had the
     pleasure of meeting a few of these people who had been blackballed in
     the past and  are being listened to again.  Here are a few that were
     at the conference:

          1.   George Adamski (now dead.)
          2.   Buck Nelson (ND).
          3.   Billie Meir ( a person Don Showen has spent a great deal
               of time investigating.)
          4.   Kelvin Rowe.
          5.   M. Doreal (ND).
          6.   Daniel Fry.
          7.   Truman Bethurum.
          8.   George VanTassel (ND).

     The following contactees were at the conference:
          1.   Major Wayne Aho.
          2.   Sharula Dux ( from Telos the city beneath Mt. Shasta.)
          3.   Dr. Frank Stranges ( he works with  Valiant Thor
               from Venus).
          4.   Harley Byrd ( the nephew of Admiral Byrd.  Harley is not
               a contactee but worked as an officer to our government on
               Project Bluebook and did see the bodies of the spacemen
               that were killed in the Roswell flying saucer crash.)
          5.   Howard and Connie Menger (he wrote a book or two about
               his rides).

     Also at the conference as as speakers were:

          1.   Elyce Ross.
          2.   Robert Short.
          3.   Vaadimir Terziski.
          4.   William Hamilton.
          5.   Joan Parks with Max the  crystal skull.
          6.   Larry Warren  ( whose story appeared on a recent UFO
               special about an English sighting at a base, on the
               show Unsolved Mysteries).
          7.   Sandra Michael.
          8.   Bill Cox
          9.   William Alexander Oribello.
          10.  Guy Kirkwood (Mel Noel).
          11.  Rev. John Rodgers.
          12.  Alfred Bielek.
          13.  David Jungclaus PHD.
          14.  Captain  Kelvin Randle.
          15.  Michael Linderman.
          16.  Patrica Diegel.
          17.  Shawn Alanti.
          18.  Robert Short.
          19.  Jerry Willis.
          20.  James W. Moseley (the editor of UFO Universe magazine).
          21.  Sally Mattoon.
          22.  Joe Randuzzo.
          23.  William Cooper.
          24.  Robin Andrew Quail ( no relation to the vice president).
          25.  Brad and Sherry Steiger ( one of my favorite authors of
               books about Starseed, abductions and etc.)
          26.  David Jungclaus.
          27.  Michael Lindemann.
          28.  Sandra Michael.
          29.  David Bell.

     I took some of the people's down on video tape.

     My recommendation is that if a person is interested in finding the
     truth about our origins and the people from other planets it would be
     advisable to read these people's information  realizing that they were
     sometimes in another dimension and were observing these things from a
     particular perspective.

     That's all for now, John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:38:26 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Moon Watchers: Another source of material about the moon is NASA
photographs. When they are looked at one can see large carters that
are being made even as the pictures are taken as the orbiter goes around
and takes each picture. What is normally seen is a large rock and dirt
moving device some one and one half miles long. These devices look like
a large stove pipe that is bent over the side of the crater and the rock
and dirt is placed outside the crater.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!gburton
From: [e-mail] (Garland O Burton)
Subject: Re: Alien visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:06:34 GMT
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Harri P Pesonen) writes:
>Hello, I subscribed to this newsgroup a couple of days ago, because
>I saw a fascinating (!) program about UFOs in our local telly.
>It was an american program which covered all usual (?) facts (:-))
>about extra terrestials, like Project Blue Book.
>
>I was hoping to find more info about ETs on this newsgroup, but so far
>the most interesting thing has been some weird story about mental
>hospitals, called INVASION!!
>
>Don't any of you have a real personal experience about UFOs?  If you do,
>would you be so kind to share that with me.  At least, would you be
>able to answer the following question:
>
>Are there any alien visitors on earth or not?
>
>Or better yet:
>
>Are there any alien visitors on this newsgroup?
>
>
>Thanks,
>        Harri
>--
>Harri Pesonen, Helsinki, Finland, Europe?

your message has a glint of cynicism that we will overlook for now.

here is a story that seemed, IMHO, to have the elements of an abduction.

one night, i crashed REAL HARD on the downstairs sofa of our apartment.
this is something i never do.  my wife came downstairs to awaken me. this was in the middle of the night.  she was visibly shaken.  what she told me was
something right out of budd hopkins intruders.  she wouldn't think of reading
that kind of "trash."

it seems she was taken into a "craft" that could look down upon a city in which she used to live.  there was an escourt taking her on an escalator of sorts which had a falling person in front of her.  she remembers having to get out of the way.  later, she was in bed and knew there were some beings behind the head board next to the wall.  she was unable to move.  there was a vile ov what she called "viscious liquid" on the night stand.  the "people" behind her tried to calm her at this point.  she was unab


le to move.  frozen.  then she came down and woke me up.  why didn't the dog near me bark if there were "beings" in the apartment?  why was i crashed so hard?

nasty dream if you ask me.

gb

--
[e-mail].............copyright 1992 gary burton........
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:17:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

I made a mistake in the previous material. Timothy Green Beckley (MR. UFO)
is the editor of UFO Universe Magazine.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11265 alt.alien.visitors:8606
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:38:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
Lines: 79

     Subject: What Age Are We In?

     Some people think the Age of Aquarius is just something
     that some crazy people made up to make a lot of money off of
     gullible people and I'll have to admit that some people think
     that I (John Winston) am one of the most gullible people that
     just fell of the turnip truck.

     First of all lets define the word Newager.  The word refers
     to a person who basically believes we are going into a newage
     and most of these people are believing and hoping it will be a
     good one.  Things may get worse before they get better and we
     (including myself as a newager) sure expect things to get better
     as we just are getting into the Aquarian Age.  From Jesus  till
     now has been the Picean Age and he talked about going to see a
     person with jars of water on his shoulder which refers to the
     Aquarian Age.  He said he would be with us to the end of the
     world but other translations of the bible say it this way, till
     the end of the age.

     I asked a friend of mine to write me out an explanation of
     how we can determine what age we are in, he said he couldn't,
     and wouldn't do it.  It was too complicated and there is a lot
     of controversy between astrologers and astronomers.  Each group
     thinks the other group is crazy and some people claim to be in
     both groups.  I guess you would call them double crazy.
     Astronomers don't even want to talk about the word age.  I seems
     it all got started when men and women on earth would look up in
     the sky and look at certain group of stars and  they looked at
     them with a good imagination like you may have looked at clouds
     as a kid.  You probably thought that some looked like birds ,
     elephants and etc.  People long ago looked at the stars and said
     that one looked like a bear, scorpion and a hunter.  Later on
     these words that they used for the animals came through as using
     their Greek and other languages to name the star systems that we
     have today.   The names of the zodiacal signs are Aries the Ram,
     Taurus the Bull, Gemini the Twins,Cancer the Crab, Leo the Lion,
     Virgo the Virgin, Libra the Balance, Scorpio the Scorpion,
     Sagittarius the Archer, Capricornus the Goat, Aquarius the Water
     Bearer and Pisces the Fishes.

     In the 1800's scientific people decided to make some sense
     out of all of this and got their minds together to agree on
     certain names and definitions.  The people decided to divide the
     Zodiac or full rotation of the stars around the north
     star(Polaris) into 12 parts.  These parts had certain star  and
     constellations in them and they were named about the same names
     as they were called thousands of years ago.

     When you look up in the sky at one time each night you'll
     notice  that stars of a particular group will be in a particular
     position and each night they will be in about the same spot.
     The second thing we'll have to do is find out what day it is in
     relation to the position  ( or axial excursion) of the sun. This
     can be done many ways but  one way is to go to Stone Hendge in
     England or Medicine Wheel in the Sheep Mountains of Wyoming, USA
     and see when the sun comes up and casts a shadow at certain
     point through some  of the pillars (stones).  By this method we
     can prove when the first day of spring is.  You can do the same
     thing by putting up a stick and marking where the suns shadow is
     cast on the ground.  The sun comes up about 2 minutes earlier
     each day until a certain day and then the days start to get
     shorted by 2 minutes.

     Now we have the sun coming up at a certain time on a
     certain day.  The Sun is then observed to see what part of the
     Equinox it is in or you can observe the sky at night and
     calculate what part of the Equinox it is in.  Because of the
     procession of the equinoxes about the ecliptic, a 26,000  year
     cycle, the first point of Aries retrogrades about one degree in
     70 years so that the sign of Aries today lies in the
     constellation  Pieces.  In about 24,000 years, when the
     regression will have completed the entire  circuit of 360
     degrees the  zodiacal signs and constellations will again
     coincide.  They started naming signs probably in 2,000 BC in
     Mesopotamia.  zodiacal signs are Aries the Ram, Taurus the Bull,
     Gemini the Twins,Cancer the Crab, Leo the Lion, Virgo the
     Virgin.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11266 alt.alien.visitors:8607 sci.skeptic:29156
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:51:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear Astral Travellers: There is one thing that I didn't mention about
this astral traveling and that is things can sometimes get pretty rough
do it. Sometimes people don't come back. The lady I call D. got the
you know what scared out of her when she heard a womans voice and there
was no one there. During normal sleep on about monday of this week
I fell out of bed. When I got up a person pointed out to me that my
pillow had blood on it. It seems that I had cut my ear but as Dick
Tracy used to say it was just a superficial wound. Jeff came over in
the physical form yesterday and help me learn how to post from a floppy
disk to the net and also to go to the next page in posting.
I hope all is well with all of you.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11267 alt.alien.visitors:8608 sci.skeptic:29157
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:54:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Please let me state that Don Showen did not post that article. I am the
guilty one.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!cats.ucsc.edu!dangaio
From: [e-mail] (The One Who Must Be Kept)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mysterious Happening
Date: 19 Aug 1992 03:58:34 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu



about two weeks ago, my father and i had an interesting encounter...

i had woken up, something highly unusual unto itself, and gone in search of
some food.. my dad had woken up and headed for the... hell i dont know where
he was headed, doesnt matter... anyway we met in the living room. and we have
these big windows on the wall facing ne/e ish direction.. the windows are
on an outside wall of the house and there is a small clearing outside it..
about 50 feet from the window on the other side the cleaing is a tall stnad
of redwood trees. (seqouia) note that there was no moon that night.. i checked.
no moon that could have done this anyway.

anywho- we met there and were standing there near the windows... half dazed in
that state when you wkae up that you're awake but not really concious...
there was an intense light shining in on us.. the angle it was coming in at
placed the light source below the tops of the trees so it had to be between the
house and the the trees. from the angle i calculated later that the object was
probably about 15 ft off the ground, about 25-30 ft away.. we saw no visible
source or object that emitted the light.. and it was far too bright ot be a
flashlight or headlight... (we live in the middle of nowhere).. and there was
no noise that would identify a helicopter or such... then after i began to
seriously wonder what the hell it was, it vanished.. just *poof* gone...

without a trace... nothing on the ground, no marks. nothing... pretty fucking
weird if you ask me... i'm wondering if anything similar has happened to
anyone else or if anyone has some explanations for this..

 - Tom Fox

    - Searching for female vmapire, if you are one or know one. let me know

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11268 alt.alien.visitors:8610
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:33:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 116

     Subject: Newage Religion and etc.
        Let me introduce myself.  My name is John F. Winston.
     I am a person who has had a few experiences with Newage things
     and lately a person suggested that I write a book so with your
     permission I put down some of my experiences.  I hope they will
     be of interest to you.
        If I had read the incidents within this posting 25 years ago I
     would probably had not believed them, so I'll understand if when you
     read them you only believe that they are science fiction.  When the
     first Russian satellite was coming over the earth I couldn't believe
     that it was going to stay up in the air and continue to go around
     the earth.  You might say I was very closed minded but after it was
     explained to me by scientific facts how it operated then it made sense
     to me and I believed.  In the course of this book many things will
     be talked about that seem impossible and strange.  Just try to keep
     an open mind and I'll do my best to explain them so they make sense.
     Many people have heard my experiences over the radio and some of them
     have suggested I write a book for the general public bringing these
     things out to the world.  Many of the these experiences are serious
     adventures that I'll be attempting to relate to you in a somewhat com-
     ical manner.  This information is the truth as things were seen and
     felt by myself.
        While working on the sides of an Atlas Missile at Vandenberg,
     AFB one day I got the feeling that there was something that I had to
     do or to find.  I sold everything and took off for Fairbanks, Alaska,
     then came back and did a lot of searching for information on Noah's
     Ark but finally came in contact with a crippled fellow from Oakland,
     who became my teacher, you know the old saying when the pupil is
     ready the teacher will appear.  This man set me down and started
     talking about UFOs, ESP and Mt. Shasta.  All of a sudden I forgot
     about wanting to find something.
        When I first met Merle Fagot I had gone to a meeting of an
     organization that investigated the occult over in Berkley, Calif. It
     was called The San Antonio Street College of Metaphysics Inquiry
     and was owned and operated by a person by the name of John Hopkins.
     John was a millionaire and the nephew of the person who started the
     John Hopkins Hospital.  At this meeting they talked about the Shroud
     of Turin.  I was also investigating searching for Noah's Ark.
     I thought maybe that might be what I was searching for.  To prove
     how little I knew about extra sensory perception (ESP),
     when I asked a question at the meetings I used the letters
     ECP so you can see I started not knowing much about  all of this
     information. I asked John Hopkins if he knew anybody who knew
     much about Noah's Ark and he referred me to a crippled man in a
     wheelchair over in the corner of the room.  This man turned out to
     know a little bit about Noah's Ark but all of a sudden he changed
     subject and started talking about flying saucers and Mt. Shasta.
     I thought it was odd for him to start talking about those subjects
     but the more he talked the more I forgot that I had been looking
     for as I have mentioned before.  Within a short time the desire
     to find something had left me and I had found it in what he was
     saying.   He was becoming my teacher or a new word I had never
     understood before, he was being my Guru.  The thing that a Guru
     teaches you is basically how to overcome this existence, how
     to make it out of this life, or how to make it off this world.
        From that time on her started teaching me steady for the
     next two and one half years at the proper speed so that the shock of
     it all wouldn't cause me to give up.  He would only give me  enough
     information to keep me going at the proper pace.  His name
     was Merle and he is possibly the best story teller that the
     world has even known.
        After being taught by Merle for a long time I had the
     following experience in telling some electronics students a story
     that may be of interest to you.  It was in the year l965 on a
     friday afternoon, we had just completed a test and the boys had
     a little time left before being released on liberty for the weekend.
     I was not the regular teacher but had just come in to give them
     the test that day.  They had told me that they had heard about
     me all the way from the first weeks of school and they begged me
     to tell them something about the things that I had discussed
     with the other classes.  I then asked them, "Well then what will
     it be flying saucers, ESP,or Mt. Shasta"?  I always thought
     of it as Mount Shasta and the Legend of the White Robed Men.  They
     took a vote and picked Mt. Shasta.
        I perceived that some of the boys weren't very sincere about
     really wanting to learn something about the subject but I was
     really glad to tell them about it.  I first told them about my
     job at Vandenburg and the trip to Alaska.  I then told them about
     a trip that Merle made to the town of Mount Shasta and I'll tell
     it to you in his own words.  He  had heard a few stories about
     Mt. Shasta a long time ago and decided to check them out for him-
     self in l937.  He had heard about the men inside the mountain
     so when he pulled into the town of Mt. Shasta he stopped and talk-
     ed with a gasoline station operator and asked him if he had
     ever heard anything about the Legends of the White Robed Men.
     The filling station operator said that it was funny that he
     would ask him that because less than a month before today he
     had one of them come into his station and ask to buy some
     kerosene.  The man didn't have a can with him at the time so the
     attendant went back in the station, filled a can and gave it to
     him. The man from the mountain was wearing a long white robe
     with sandals and a turban sort of head garment.  This man reached
     into a fold in his robe and pulled out a pouch containing some
     gold and handed it to the attendant.  The attendant looked at
     it and said, "That's much too much, let me get you some change."
     The man then just put out his hand towards him and said for him
     to keep it.  The next day the attendant had the gold cashed in
     for money and he got 34 dollars for it.
        It seems that these people come into the small towns around
     there ever so often.  They pay for things with gold and then
     walk back to the  mountain.  They speak in sort of an Oxford
     King's English.  They ask that people not follow them back to the
     mountain.  If people do follow them when they reach a certain
     place on the mountain the  person following them will get a
     headache and if they follow any further then the person's head
     will hurt so bad that they can't stand it and they will have to
     turn back.
        There are places and roads on the mountain that when you try
     to go over them with a car or jeep the motor will die on you.
     When you push the car back out of the area it will start OK but
     when you try to go further down or up the road the motor will
     stop.  If you try it on horseback the horse will rear up with
     you and not go any further.  Motorcycles also stop the same way.
     On a different day you can go down the same road with no dif-
     ficulty.
        That's the end of part 1  John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Lay Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:39:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 58
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu



In article  <3.14159=>=>=>@somewhere in Mexico>

John_-_Winston says;

>Now let me give you another fact. The Earth's resonate frequency
>is 8.3 cycles per second (which varies a little due to certain
>factors).  I wear a watch that has a transmitter in it that puts
>out a wave of energy at about the same frequency as the Earth
>resonant frequency. This shields me from ELF (extremely low
>frequency) radiation.  John Winston.

And (Ithlial the Archer) asks;

>>Why would one worry about natural radiation below the optical
>>band?  There are no natural sources (on the Earth) of radiation
>>in this energy range intense enough for your body to be effected.

>>All the man made sources I can think of, microwaves, radio
>>station, TV stations et cetera are harmless.  If your going to
>>worry about natural sources of radiation I'd think UV from the
>>sun should rank pretty high.  The key here is low frequency=low
>>energy.  Radiation in this range is not ionizing, which is what
>>makes it dangerous.

>>BTW what is the reference for this ELF radiation from the Earth?

>>Ithlial

>>My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

>>To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no
>>choreography,
>>and the dancers hit each other.

O.K. you asked for it.  Don't laugh at me, I got this out of
paperbacks.

     Around 1905 Tesla did some experiments in Colorado Springs
with high voltage, low frequency A.C.  He discovered that in order
to get a propagated wave to travel from his 128ft? coil tower to
the opposite point on the earth and return in time to amplify the
next wave traveling up the tower the frequency must be 10.65hz.  He
called this the resonant frequency of the earth.
     New Age foo foo heads believe the human aura is tuned to the
earth, you know, Gaia's babies therefore Gaia's tone.  The human
aura is shaped like an eggshell.  The 60hz coming from wall sockets
disrupt this human force field, cracking the eggshell.  When the
eggshell is cracked humans are left open to psychic attack by grays
and other evil entities.  The grays can even implant devices to
control you.

So, there you have it.  Have fun with it.

To me, surfing is like ballet, only the wind sings the song, the
tides beat the drums, and the waves caress you like a lover.
KAWABUNGA, HERE COMES A DINOSAUR...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11269 alt.alien.visitors:8612 sci.skeptic:29166 alt.religion.kibology:3512
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Between a rock and a type specimen sheet, Boston.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:30:21 GMT
Lines: 23

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>
>Thanks John. Your latest posts are very interesting, although I'm not sure
>I understand the Kibo thing.

I hear that a large, glowing, Kibo Thing (in technical terms, a
Kibological Flying Craft, or KFC) was sighted over the Republican
Convention, which is in the *ASTRO*dome.  COINCIDENCE?  I think NOT

This craft looked just like something from the movie '2001', which as we
all know is the most realistic science-fiction movie ever made, so
obviously this Kibo Thing could not have been a hoax.

After it landed in the middle of a field, and took off, a mysterious marking
was discovered in the field.  It was rectangular, on a post, and said "Keep
off the grass."

There is speculation that the alien craft was from Planet X, or perhaps
Planet Schwa, although Carl Sagan and Arthur C. Clarke insist it was
Planet T, home of the Earl Greys.
                            -- K.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:14:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 66

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>
>Rick - what sort of proof would be acceptable to you?  It's a very difficult
>thing to prove.  The closest I could come would be to demonstrate how to make
>circles very similar to the ones in dispute (assuming I had such knowledge -
>I don't, I'm just a casual observer).  Does that prove to you the other
>circles were created by humans?
Let's see... what would work?  OK, here's what would prove it to me.
There are two types of circles, if you've followed it at all closely.
One is a type that is consistant with people walking around on a 2x6
board pressing the stalks down.

The second has different characteristics such as the stalks are bent,
not broken, and the cellular structure exhibits some kind of abberation.

The first is easy to duplicate.  They've done it on video.  The second
is harder.  While I don't know all the traits that make them different,
I would assume that a circle would have to be created with a method that
uses techniques that resolve all the anomalies in the two types, and
that this circle (that resolves all the differences) and it's creation
be recorded on video.  If I saw something like that, that took the effort
to address all the characteristics of both types of circles...  I'd
consider it proven to my satisfaction.  Perhaps we could develop that
test here on the net?

>What proof can be offered in _any_ regard as to the origin of an existing
>object?  No matter how convincingly I can imitate it, you can always say,
>'But you didn't prove that's how _this_ one was done'.  James Randi runs
>up against this all the time.

Randi is somewhat different here... he's deliberately set himself up
with a $10,000 bet that he pays the person who can perform some feat
that Randi can't prove was pres pros prestidigi prestidgi  slight of hand.

He deserves to have to prove or disprove these claims.

Me, since I don't have a lot of money riding on it, I'm easier to convince.
(After all, I wasn't originally convinced there was something unusual
happening with crop circles...  I don't just jump on ANY fad!)

But my assertation can't be disproved any more than the assertation that
men created all of the circles can be proven.

I am willing to conclude that men 'probably' made all the crop circles.
I will be more willing to admit that they 'did' make all the crop circles
when you can show me a man make celery bend at a right angle without
breaking or killing the celery.  And then do it in the midst of a field
of cereal in the shape of a mandelbrot.

If there's someone out there that's done it, then nows the time to tellit.
Can they be upstaged by a couple of old farts that used 2x4's and string
to not want to show off their technology (which is surely far more advanced
than a 2x4...)

If they can demonstrate the technology, they can apply for patents that will
pay them more than enough money to cover the damage to the crops...  ;-)

If 'they' did, I wish they would.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:24:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>
>Either you honestly want proof, and define what constitutes proof, or you
>admit your demand was unfair, and withdraw the challenge.  But you can't
>have it both ways.
>
Well, as we have all probably figured out... there is a delay in
answering the posts.  The answers take time to run the full circle.

I've answered this question before.  (About 15 minutes ago, in fact).
I'll let that stand.

But my demand for proof was no less fair than yours...

There is a point where I can be persuaded that crop circles were most
likely ALL done by men.  From Earth.  I'm obviously not there yet.
(Man made machine is ok, too.)

At the moment I still feel that some (a large percentage) of the crop
circles were created by some previously unknown or unverified non-
human force.  This might be a naturally occuring force previously
undefined, or it might be extraterrestrial in nature.  I'm not concluding
anything there, either, by the way...  I don't have evidence to prove
that conclusively, either.

I'll withdraw the statement the request for proof was rhetorical.
(It sounds like you want to try to convince me.  One of us is
going to be converted...  :-)

Rick

ps.  Sorry this doesn't travel as fast as email...



--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:36:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>Again, Rick wants to have his cake and eat it too.  He wants his challenge
>to be declared 'rhetorical', requiring no response - but he continues to
>imply he has won the challenge.
>
While I won't presume to have won, I have my doubts that either side
will prevail without some kind of intervention.

>Rick, if your point is simply that one cannot 'prove' the origin of all the
>disputed circles, fine.  But you seem also to be saying that lack of such
>a proof is our (the skeptics') fault.

That wasn't the intention.  Lack of such proof is typical to an absolute
statement as was made.  (If men created at least one, since that's the
simple explanation, then man created all of them...  ;-)

>                                        Either the challenge is inherently
>unanswerable (rhetorical), or it does in fact have a solution.  Which is it?
>
Indeed, as above, the point is simply that you [skeptics] cannot prove the
absolute statement that man and his tools did create all of the crop
circles.  Fair is fair.  I cannot provide an alien in a spaceship...
or plasma toroids, or any other evidence that says man didn't create all
of the circles.  We, sir, are at an impasse.

Practically speaking, we may find we must settle on the preponderance
of evidence to decide...  if there is overwhelming evidence that man
created crop circles that exhibit all the different characteristics
found in Crop Circles in different parts of the world
 (And if it's men doing it you should be able to prove it...)
then I'd likely agree with you.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the missing link
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:42:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:
>Hey, I know *I'm* an alien!
>
>(And to prove it, I'm going to go make some crop circles, clone Gary Stollman's
>parents, teach my pet rock to sing, and breed a colony of invisible fish.  Then
>I'm going to abduct everyone who reads alt.alien.visitors)
>
>Hey! You can't PROVE I'm not who I say I am!
Nor would I try...  ;-)  I'm not one to spoil a good joke...






Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]       |
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:47:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>
>*****
>It says NOTHING about the times we live in...It "reads" like it does
>because it is the TRUTH!!  And you insinuate that I am a mental
>patient...I resent that because I was FORCED into ALL those mental
>hospitals by this government, which I am going to SUE TO HIGH HEAVEN, and
>by enemies who can read minds, etc...YOU wouldn't have lasted five minutes
>under the strain of what I have had to go through...I am PROUD that I
>ain't some crazy artiste, or Hollywierd moviemaker...
>
>
>--
>Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------

Well Jeremy, is this interesting enough?  Or do you want MORE?

Ye gods... he's on GEnie, too!











Rick (Got to go change my .signature file...)
(QUICK!  :-)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <jb!nqa=[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:43:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The One Who
Mu
st Be Kept) writes:
>
>
>about two weeks ago, my father and i had an interesting encounter...

Verrry interesting...

>i had woken up, something highly unusual unto itself, and gone in search of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sign #1

>these big windows on the wall facing ne/e ish direction.. the windows are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sign #2
>
>anywho- we met there and were standing there near the windows.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sign #3 - I remember mentioning elsewhere here, they really do
prefer the windows.

.. half dazed in that state when you wkae up that you're awake
but not really concious...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sign #4
 an intense light shining in on us.. the angle it was coming in at
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sign #5 - and really the thing that makes this experience something
out of the ordinary. Yet for some people, over a million in the US
 in fact, these are things they have encountered as well...

You know, I'm not going to interprete your experience for you, and
I assume you are telling the truth, so I'm not going to question you
veracity...

I have been reading Secret Life (about abductions)
 for the last few days, and had a heavy dose of Deja Vu just now...
 I don't think I have to say much more than that.

You have all the classic signs, and this is about as much as
most people remember until they are hypnotised, according to over 60
cases recounted in this book.

You may want to remember the rest and you may not. But you should consider
the possibility that there was much more to this than you remember right
now.

Jeff-
Xref: icaen alt.prose:2011 alt.religion.kibology:3513 alt.sex.stories:1415 alt.alien.visitors:8619 comp.os.coherent:5029
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors,comp.os.coherent
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!iitmax!pred
From: [e-mail] (Predrag S. Bundalo)
Subject: Re: Story about Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 06:33:09 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:
>
>OK, I give up, why is this in alt.alien.visitors?
>-Tom R.   [e-mail]

This shouldn't be in comp.os.coherent either.  Especially not here since most
people reading this group pay for news (and email) via uunet and phone bills.

Pred Bundalo

Followups set to alt.religion.kibology
--
:::  Predrag S. Bundalo                  Academic Computing Center     :::
:::  Illinois Institute of Technology    Chicago, Illinois             :::
..........................................................................
:::  Internet:  pred@{iitmax, elof}.iit.edu, [e-mail]  :::
:::  BITNET  :  [e-mail]                               :::
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 06:49:01 GMT
Lines: 47


Tom,

As a matter of fact,something very similar happened to me thanksgiving
night
in 1988.I was heading up to San Francisco to a couple of friends house
around 730ish pm.It was raining quite hard . I'm not sure exactly where I
was ,but it was north of Menlo Park & South of S.F. I was going Northbound
on 101.

I remember coming up on a sweeping right turn in the freeway when I noticed
a bright glow from behind some trees that were to the front & right of my
position. I could not see the source though. It lit up the whole area.Like
a city does from a distance when you are on a country road with no
lighting.This was bright,really bright.At this time I must have been a .5
miles away.As I made it around the turn & the freeway straitened out I
realized that it was right over the freeway.....I then noticed that there
were 3 spun out cars in the area of where this thing was.

The light source was about the size of a large beachball & was
superbright,like a welding torch only white-white,like a magnesium fire. I
could not really look at it directly cause it was so bright. I assumed the
cars spun out cause this thing must have startled them.It was about 30-40
foot in the air....with no visible source.It did not move at all. I passed
under it & then looked back only to see it glow out.
There was no overpass in the area,so I think that rules out a spotlight.It
was too bright for that anyway.

I called the highway patrol when I arrived at my friends house & inquired
if there were any reports of anything strange lights seen on the freeway
that night,he said no but that he would look into it.Igave him my phone #
but he never returned my call.

I guess it could have been ball lighting or some form of natural plasma,I
really don't know what it was.I'm sure GLUTIOUS MAXIMUS will have the
answer very soon though;->                       ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Stealth UFO or something?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: I don't know
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:22:35 GMT
Lines: 40

Hello Anybody,

Just thought I would share another strange experience with you all tonight
since I'm still here.

It's very short so please don't expect much more than what I have to say.

I was working at Hewelett Packard(Cupertino Site) at the time,about 4 years
ago  I was outside having a smoke on the east end of building 44....like
anyone knows where this is.I really don't remember what time of year it was
but I do remember it was warm,might have been spring. I was facing east
just looking up at the sky thinking about the next task for the day
was,when I noticed almost directly over my head,motion.

What I thought it looked like at the time was a V-formation of invisible
ducks.
I saw what looked like a forward moving V(moving approx.north to south)
that only had like a heat distortion outline in the shape of a V. I follwed
it for about 15 seconds across the sky,it was moving relatively slow,it
didn't make a sound.Never saw one again. Unfortunately nobody else was
around to confirm what I saw.

What was it?

It sure wasn't a piece of lint on my eye.or swamp gas,or a hallucination. I
wouldn't last too long in Network Analysis/Troubleshooting game with having
a tweaked mind.Figured I'd head off you schleptics before you have your
little fun,& I do mean little.


Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8622 alt.conspiracy:17846
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <9f![e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 08:00:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Summary: The continuing saga of my story...
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman
Lines: 154



I went to TCC to sign up for classes in September of 1981...When I walked
into the signup room, there was a large overhead projector of all the
classes available...I had gotten there the first day of signup, so I could
have a good list to choose from...Most, if not all of the classses being
offered were already taken, and unhappily I went home, after one of the
counselors told me some people might drop their classes the next day...

The next day I came back, and lo and behold, classes had been
dropped...ALL of them!!  I was very suspicous of this and asked a
counselor by the name of Sylvia DeLoach what the heck had happened...She
told me that people had just gotten carried away, that it had never
happened before and never would again...I couldn't believe it but took
this at face value...I signed up for five classes, what I needed to
finish my AA degree...I took Psychology, Meterology, American History,
Art, and Mythology...The school's principal was extremely kind to give me
full credit for my previous academic work at Grossmost College in San
Diego...I started classes in earnest the following week, and evrything
seemed to be normal at first...

Shortly after I started going to class, things began to get strange...In
my Meteorology class, there was a guy in front of me who kept turning
around and saying stuff to me that had nothing whatoever to do with the
class...During our first test, he kept turning around and giving me the
answers or something similar...Then, one day, the instructor, an elderly
woman, started talking about something which had nothing to do with
Meteorology...Then she said, "And there are many lawsuits pending!" and
looked up with a look of utter contempt on her face...The situation
gradually got worse, with the guy in front of me saying stuff loud enough
to be heard by everyone, then turning around and looking at me, as if I
was supposed to know what he was talking about...He did this constantly...

In my Mythology class, the teacher started talking about subjects having
nothing to do with Mythology...Then, one day, after a lot of things which
convinced me that I was being spied on purposefully, she started talking
about a "King" that lived in some islands off the coast of Italy, which I
couldn't understand, especially when she got out maps of the area and
pointed out to us exactly where he lived...I felt I had had enough of it,
and when she got done talking, I raised my hand...She said VERY
hesitantly, "I believe YOU had a question?"...I said, "Yeh, just WHERE did
you say that KING lived!?"...She pointed to the area on the map, and I
said in a loud voice, "Yeh, RIGHT!...A girl who had been sitting next to
me the whole time went, "FUCK!!"...Everybody suddenly quieted down real
low, and I felt as if I was sitting in a prison...

When I went into my next class, American History, the girl sitting next to
me who happened to be in my other class also, did something pretty
strange...She pushed a pen off of her desk, so I would have to pick it
up...She did it on purpose...And she did it REAL slick, too...If I wasn't
as perceptive as I am, you would have though it was not staged...But it
was...Later on in the semester, I pushed a pen off my desk and MADE it
look like it was staged, and she immediately jumped up, and ran to the
front of the room and sat down at a different desk, next to her "CIA
friend" or whatever, who had been playing jackass mindgames all that time
also...

Then, the ultimate proof...At the study session for the midterm in
Meteorology, there was just me and those other guys, who had been
bothering me from the start almost...There was two other guys in there who
had made me think they were there just to spy on me...I decided to try
something, and in the middle of the lecture, I suddenly jumped up and ran
out the front door...Almost instantly, the two guys jumped up...One ran
out the side door and down the side of the building towards the parking
lots, and the other ran out the front door behind me, and went in the same
direction...I had had enough, to say the least...

I went to the head of the counseling department, who was Sylvia
DeLoach...I told her what I thought was going on in my classes, and she
went into her office, and picked up the phone, and asked me who I wanted
her to call to find out about it...I told her I didn't know, and she
suggested the Sheriffs office...She dialed the number, and told her name
and mine, and then she turned to me and said, "It's Sargeant Parramoore,
Gary...He says it's what you're thinking!"...She then told me he said to
meet him at the Courthouse at 5pm and he would tell me all about it...

I had to go to my Psychology class first, and I was trying to think of
somebody who could be a witness to whatever was said...When I got to
class, I made probably the most serious mistake of my life...It turned out
that there had been a flap that week at TCC, in which some guy in my
psychology class had been in the men's room, when he had spotted a hidden
camera in one of the vents...He started to tear it out, when, so the story
went, three security guards came running in and forced him out of
there...The camera was taken out, and any complaints were going to the
Attorney General's office...There was a big story on it in the Tallahassee
Democrat at the time, and when I walked into class, the teacher was
discussing it with him...I figured this was a guy I could trust...So I
asked him if he would come with me to see this Sgt. Parramoore...He said
sure...

We got into my car, and then the most peculiar thing happened...While we
were driving down the street, this guy started yelling and screaming out
the window of the car at people, and even if there was noone...He whooped
it up but good, and when we got to the Courthouse, he walked into the
Marriage License Bureau, and asked for the guy...I had never been to the
courthouse before, and so didn't know where his office was...This guy told
me that he had friends out at the Sheriff's Dept. headquarters on
Thomasville Rd., and said he was probably there...So, like a fool, I went
along with it and drove to the Sheriff's office...When we got out of the
car, I knew this guy wasn't quite as "crazy" as he had made out, because
he dropped a paper he was holding on purpose, to see if I would tell him...

We walked into the station house, and he went right into the watch
commanders office and told him we wanted to see Sgt. Parramoore...The
watch commander asked what was going on, and then this "student" asked me
if I would step out of the room for a minute, while he talked to the
officer...I did so, like a fool again, and after about a minute or two,
the door opened...The student told me to come in, and when I did so, I
noticed the demeanor of the watch commander had changed completely...He
was looking at me like I was some kind of mass murderer...The student sat
down in a chair nearby, and I sat down at the watch commanders desk...I
told the officer what had been going on in my classes, and he listened
carefully, although it was clear that nothing I was saying meant anything
meaningful anymore to him...Then when I told about how I believed these
people could be enemies of mine, the "student" spoke up...He said, "Why,
nobody would do such a thing, Gary, unless there was a PLOT TO KILL THE
PRESIDENT!!"...He shouted that part...I knew then that I was sunk, and
sure enough, the watch commander asked me if I had a counselor, and I told
him yes, and he asked for the phone number, and called her up...By the
way, I had gotten this counselor through the telephone operator, and she
worked out of an office near the main hospital in town...That is to say, I
had called information to get the number for the place, and the
information operator had told me the woman's name, and made an appointment
for me to start seeing her...Just one of the queer things going on at that
time...I just went along with it all, out of fear for my parents lives,
which is a more involved part of the story...

Anyways, he got my counselor on the phone, and she somehow knew I had gone
to the Attorney General's office for help...She asked me to go into a
small mental hospital there called Project Path...I refused, and told her
I had better ideas...She practically begged me to go in, but I was
adamant...After I hung up, the watch commander tried to convince me to go
in also, but I just walked outside...I had to wait for my "friend" and
after a few minutes he came outside...I drove him back to TCC, and this
time he didn't yell out the window at all, just talked to me about my
problems, and how I should try to solve them...When we got back, he got
out, but asked me to come to his birthday party that weekend...I told him
SURE, like I was gonna have anything to do with a CIA agent or whatever he
was, which I was sure of cause he must have flashed some kind of
HEAVY-DUTY ID at that cop for him to treat me like that, and from the bit
about the plot to kill the President...

Coming next time...How the Florida government was taken over and involved...





--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!news.funet.fi!network.jyu.fi!mol
From: [e-mail] (Mika O. Latokartano)
Subject: Re: Alien visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 06:54:48 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Harri P Pesonen) writes:
>Hello, I subscribed to this newsgroup a couple of days ago, because
>I saw a fascinating (!) program about UFOs in our local telly.
>It was an american program which covered all usual (?) facts (:-))
>about extra terrestials, like Project Blue Book.
>

  I _think_ you must be joking.  But anyway:

  Yes, the American document was your standard UFO-"document" - a couple
  of more interesting points and one mildly interesting film
  clip, but the rest 98% was total publicity-seeking bs.

  Especially the Finnish UFO-"expert" interview session after the
  US-"document" was bs like you've never seen before.

  Or what do you say when one of the so-called experts read with
  a straight face and with utmost seriousness a letter from the public
  describing a meeting with an ETI, and the letter is
  signed by pseudonym "Arthur Dent"...

  Or when the same "expert" refers his "evidence" to the continuously
  on-going information exchange (regarding UFOs) via computers between
  US and European universities...  I'd be willing to bet that
  the guy was refering to alt.alien.visitors and alt.conspiracy etc....

  I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

    - Mika

--
[  Mika O. Latokartano  Internet : [e-mail]     [e-mail]          ]
[  [e-mail]    Decnet : [e-mail]  Bitnet : [e-mail]  ]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!lure.latrobe.edu.au!genem
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I AM A ROCK?.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:26:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
> [e-mail](Tom Randolph) types........
>>So how come the rock I have as a paperweight on my shelf here has never
>>moved an inch in the 6 months it's been there?maybe it died cuz I didn't
>>feed it.
>
> Or maybe it was being recalcitrint.
>
> *********************************
> ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
> OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
> TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
> ***********************************







WRITE
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!mips!mips!decwrl!olivea!bu.edu!dartvax!Rickie.A.Slater
From: [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Personal Experience (was Re: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:07:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 65

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:

> Rick (Slater):
>
> I'm still waiting for your proof that humans created all the
> crop circles with 2x4s...
>
> In fact, could you prove that humans created ANY of them?  Now guys,
> let's have him figure out this one by himself...
>
> Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans.
>
> Rick
>
> --
> Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
> [e-mail]       |
> AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
> r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.

Rick P,

Why did my name get in this????? Maybe I don't post enough of the
article I am answering. I am not making that mistake this time.

I think some e(xtra)t(erestrials)'s are working.

If you knew the truth and the truth was unprovable to anyone who
doesn't want to believe it, would you spend your time trying to
convince the skeptics or would you spend your time learning more truth?
I know what I do.

I expect we know everything the ones responsible for the circles want
us to know. To me they have proven that it is possible to do the
unexplainable and cause a big commotion. It caused some people to start
expanding their minds beyond the known to look for new possibilities.
It caused some people to imitate the appearances in order to gain
(temporary) recognition. All while the unaffected majority still just
talk about what others have already done or are doing. Not exactly big
news. Nothing new here. Unexplainable occurances happen every day, to
someone, somewhere.

Think about this: The things we can do with our cars, boats, mass media
(and other stuff in use every day) might amaze jungle natives but what
affect would impressing them with your machines have on you? What would
you think of them if they spent all kinds of time trying to see the
hidden meaning? Would your intent in using these machines only be to
show them what kinda neat tools you have got or are you trying to
accomplish something for yourself by using the tools of our society?
Couldn't the circles just be the result of someone(s) working with
tools and not some special secret? Couldn't they have been here on
earth longer than humans? Couldn't this be their planet they are
letting us live on? And please don't expect me to prove anything
because what you don't know is your problem not mine.

No matter what the whole story is I still just want my own ship - just
like the one I saw one night. No lights, no sounds... just gliding thru
the night following the power lines... leaving me lying in bed, wide
awake, feeling scared out of my wits.

And BTW doesn't anyone out there, wherever this is going, have any
personal experinces to share.

Rick S.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kev)
Subject: Aliens that smoke???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: andorra.ssc.gov
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kev)
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:09:48 GMT
Lines: 18


          This just heard on the radio coming in to work this morning;
            "The main reasons for alien visitations to earth
             is because the aliens are hooked on our tobacco products
             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
             spacecraft"
          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?
          Thanks------





*******************************************************************
No cool (s)cig yet
*******************************************************************


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11274 alt.alien.visitors:8627 sci.skeptic:29180 alt.religion.kibology:3516
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:33:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 6

Dear Kibo K. or whoever you are: I read the information about Kibo and it
doesn't make much sense to me. Sometimes I think things are getting away from
me. Please be advised that today (wednesday 1100) is the fourth or
fifth running of the weekly Astral OOBE Sweepstakes. It's got to where
you can't identify anyone without a scorecard. Happy travels to you.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11275 alt.alien.visitors:8628 sci.skeptic:29181
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich)
Subject: Re: MEN IN BLACK
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:29:56 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 98

In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] writes:
|
[ ... ]
|
|         They are from the Sirus star system. Although  most of the "good"
|      type beings are from  that system, such as Kadar,  they refer to the
|      men in black's planet as a rather , unsightly planet;;  and from their
|      frame of reference, they do not claim them to be their own, but they
|      must acknowledge that they are, even within their dimension, located
|      within our system.  They do have the ability to change alter their
|      appearances, some-what,.
|          Our U.S. government is now cooperating with the Sirians; and the
|      question was asked,  what is the power that the entire government has
|      to go along with them? They have weapon sources, (I must
|      circumspect...) that are believed by the powers on this planet, to be
|      absolutely dominating. In other words, the government believes they
|      are looking down the barrel  of a very big gun. The Sirians are in the
|      second dimension soon to go into the third.  We are in the third, soon
|      to go into the fourth. The sirians are trying to prevent us from going
|      into the fourth dimension.
[ ... ]

    I'm not going to say no, and not going to say yes to this one.  But I
    would like you to substantiate where you've received this information
    and a some more detail if possible.  But if your 'information' is
    'channeled' by someone, I'll listen, but...

    My understanding of the MEN IN BLACK (MIB, from hereon) is that they
    are likely to be internal government agents who are highly active in
    shutting people up, and preventing information of 'real' alien
    encounters (particularly where physical evidence, and reliable people
    are involved) from being expedited.

    The fact that they 'appear' oriental, or even plastic like could also
    be speculated upon.  I wager there is some form of mask... but until
    I 'see' one (not sure I wish to), it's anybody's call at this point.
    The mask would serve many purposes, I suppose... anonymity, confusion,
    fear, intimidation.. the whole lot.  And those helicopters they use,
    which don't emanate any noise, have no markings (a blatent violation
    of FAA regulations), and don't appear to be constructed with silence
    tech... suspicious.

    Someone told me that there exists a video tape of one of these fabled
    helicopters... will have to track that down.

    Their use of certain dangerous bacteria, like Yellow Fever, to
    'exterminate' certain 'problematic' people (that is rumor, yes.. I
    will attempt to get more detail when it is available) is indicative,
    I would think, of something a bit more local to the Earth.

    Can't offer much more... can't find the information.

    Since my initial posting, I've been all over... bookstores, libraries,
    phone calls to friends and associates... and NO substantial information
    can be found.  I'm looking for case history, transcripts of actual
    accounts and so forth.  Strange...  the next stop is a local University.

|         The negative Sirians are involved with these cattle mutilations
|      because of their desire create a species that can perpetuate itself in
|      the harshest of conditions.
|         The people from Zeta Reticuli aren't doing the mutilations, but the
|      "primative" Zeta reticulians, which are from (what we would concider)
|      to be from the the past, (please don't ask me to explain! J.W) are
|      helping the Sirians.
|         One of the beings that was being interviewed while he was asleep is
|      ccalled B'zal. You talk about a tough dude. . . He would make the
|      worst person on earth look like Mr. Rogers.
[ ... ]

    *cough*  I'm trying to keep an open mind here, really.  But don't you
    think that if some society had the _technology_ to create some type
    of meta-creature, that they could do so without taking certain
    peculiar parts of a bovine???  In particular the genitalia, tongues,
    eyeballs... and blood.  Tissue and some chemicals, once gotten can
    be synthesized.  And if they can manufacture some weird creature like
    that, then surely would have technology to synthesize certain fluids
    and create basic tissue cultures...  nevermind.

|         I'll leave you with this saying; A political expert is one who
|      tells you what will happen tommorrow, then tells you why it did'nt.
[ ... ]

    Please tell me that this isn't true.

|         This is being posted for Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don.
|      Don is not me.
[ ... ]

    Er... someone 'else' had you post a message?  Oooh... hmmm.

    Any more information from out there?

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!fstop.csc.ti.com!tidss1!alanj
From: [e-mail] (Alan Jones,AMJ1,)
Subject: Re: MUTILATIONS IN SWEEDEN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tidss1.dadd.ti.com
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:48:56 GMT
Lines: 18

One thing I just thought of with respect to all of these mutilations - are
the mutilated animals examined for traces of how the animals were restrained
while the mutilation took place?  I.e. any traces of anesthetic, traces of
poison, etc.  Or evidence of straps or chains used to immobilize the animal?

The Swedish cases are the first ones I've heard of where animals were mutilated
and lived.  (Although, admittedly, I've read VERY little on the subject.)  When
the animals die, though, don't they (who?  veterinarians?!?) attempt to
determine the specific cause of death?  And if so, what *exactly* is the cause?
(I remember a post a while ago stating that many of the death certificates for
these animals stated something like "cause unknown" [animals don't normally get
death certificates, but in cases like these where "insured property" is
damaged, something like a death certificate is issued for insurance purposes]).

---
sincerely,
Alan Jones  /  Texas Instruments, Dallas, TX  /  email=[e-mail]

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Poorly Worded UFO Public Opinion Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:36:23 GMT
Lines: 10

OK, the poll has ended. Any additional responses that don't hit my mailbox
before the end of compilation will be trashed. Unfortunately, as a few
people have pointed out, the results will not be clear cut because of the
way I worded the poll. So, therefore, next week I will issue a more
accurate poll. I am starting the compilation process now. If you haven't
participated by the time you read this, just wait until next week and
send me some responses to that one.

Gregg.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11281 alt.alien.visitors:8631 sci.skeptic:29193
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:04:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 8

According to [e-mail]:
> (please don't ask me to explain! J.W)

I guess that just about wraps it up for John_-_Winston.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:07:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 9

According to [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau):
> Simple minds are predisposed to simple answers.

No.  >>Intelligent<< minds are predisposed to simple answers.  It is
the gullible who imagine unproveable complexity behind every event.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!bcm!rice!RICEVM1.RICE.EDU!LINSCOT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 1992 14:41:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:

>
>Dear Moon Watchers: Another source of material about the moon is NASA
>photographs. When they are looked at one can see large carters that
>are being made even as the pictures are taken as the orbiter goes around
>and takes each picture. What is normally seen is a large rock and dirt
>moving device some one and one half miles long. These devices look like
>a large stove pipe that is bent over the side of the crater and the rock
>and dirt is placed outside the crater.
>John Winston.


John - Your posts are interesting, and some could be believed with an
open mind and LARGE quantities of salt.  But this one is just not true.
Although I am no longer associated with the space program (was a contractor
 at JSC), I still study the moon through telescopes and atlases.  The
devices that you describe do NOT appear on NASA lunar photographs. (Nor
on ANY photographs that I have studied).          - Steve -

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11282 alt.alien.visitors:8634 sci.skeptic:29195 alt.religion.kibology:3520
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!bu.edu!dartvax!coos.dartmouth.edu!csquared
From: [e-mail] (C Squared)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:24:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 33
Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>[alt.alien.visitors]
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>>
>>Thanks John. Your latest posts are very interesting, although I'm not sure
>>I understand the Kibo thing.
>
>I hear that a large, glowing, Kibo Thing (in technical terms, a
>Kibological Flying Craft, or KFC) was sighted over the Republican
>Convention, which is in the *ASTRO*dome.  COINCIDENCE?  I think NOT
>
>This craft looked just like something from the movie '2001', which as we
>all know is the most realistic science-fiction movie ever made, so
>obviously this Kibo Thing could not have been a hoax.
>
>After it landed in the middle of a field, and took off, a mysterious marking
>was discovered in the field.  It was rectangular, on a post, and said "Keep
>off the grass."
>
Actually, it landed in the middle of the BASEBALL field which is INSIDE
the ASTROdome.  But that's perfectly normal, because superior lifeforms
could easily fly through the dome (or just break through it for that
matter.)  The weird part is, THERE'S NO GRASS!!!

>There is speculation that the alien craft was from Planet X, or perhaps
>Planet Schwa, although Carl Sagan and Arthur C. Clarke insist it was
>Planet T, home of the Earl Greys.
>                            -- K.

The craft was from the Daily Planet, and the reason it was here is that
it was night.

C Squared
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <1992Aug13.15052 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:13:32 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>
>I'll let you know if I ever get any photos of a non-human manufactured
>crop circle under construction...  ;-)
>
>Rick
>
>--
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
>[e-mail]       |
>AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
>r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.

Rick,

Did you see the CBS special on crop circles? Not much conclusive evidence but
there is a lot of good arial photography. Makes you realize real fast that
these were not made with 2X4s and ropes.

Gregg.

Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:17859 alt.alien.visitors:8636
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rocko)
Subject: Help ! alien spark-plug !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Flame on !
Sender: rocko@ireland (Rick O'leary)
Nntp-Posting-Host: 134.3.8.49
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:56:52 GMT
Lines: 48

To: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?

In article <[e-mail]> you write:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
|> >
|> >I'll let you know if I ever get any photos of a non-human manufactured
|> >crop circle under construction...  ;-)
|> >
|> >Rick
|> >
|> >--
|> >Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
|> >[e-mail]       |
|> >AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
|> >r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
|>
|> Rick,
|>
|> Did you see the CBS special on crop circles? Not much conclusive evidence but
|> there is a lot of good arial photography. Makes you realize real fast that
|> these were not made with 2X4s and ropes.
|>
|> Gregg.
|>


 Help Please !!!!!!!

on this same program they had a piece on this rock/crystal that had
an "object inside" it was refered to as an alien spark-plug !

please tell me who were those people?

can they be comtacted?

has this been investigated?

carbon dating?

rocko


From: [e-mail] (Rick O'leary)
Organization:
Subject:
Keywords:

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: military helicopters
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 16:53:03 GMT
Expires: 9/19/92
Lines: 20

The descriptions all sound like they were in California, and they all sound
like incidents involving helicopters.  The newer generation of military
helicopters are so quiet in "whisper" mode that you simply would not believe
it without seeing a demonstration.  Some police agencies have similar
"civilianized" equipment.  It's even spreading to "normal" civilian systems
who have to deal with noise complaints.

These incidents sound like another example of bright lights on helicopters.
It's no longer true that "it can't be a helicopter because I didn't hear
anything."

And DON'T let anybody hypnotize you unless you have a reason.  If you want to
explore the possibility that there was something else going on, see a
reputable clinical psychologist with no opinion on the "abduction phenomenon"
who does not resort to hypnotherapy without first trying all the more
"conservative" methods first.

I think that there are a LOT of military pilots with a twisted sense of humor
who generate incidents like this as a simple joke.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11289 alt.alien.visitors:8638 sci.skeptic:29214
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:02:56 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kentek Information Systems
Lines: 8

Do the Men In Black bleed? What handgun load would you recommend to
use against them? If they are really as tough as you say we may
need to go to the .454 Casull load. Do they wear body armour? If
so we may need to practice up on head shots.

Chris Kostanick
"If they bleed they can die"

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Rick Pavek Needs a Flame (was: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:46:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>
>--
>--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
>Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.


I like your sig...  ;-)


Assertion:  Not all crop circles can be easily explained by
the hoaxters.  The crop circles they made don't resemble the majority
of the crop circles.

I'll be gathering my data.

I also find it interesting that interspersed between my posts and
others' posts there have been some that came forth with data that
pointed to the conclusion that circles have been created that show
signs of other-than-human manufacture...  yet these have been oddly
ignored.  There is obviously a correlation between the amount of
data needed to prove a point and the willingness of the recipient
to be believed.

Thank you for your opinions.  Once again, you missed the point.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:50:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>Considering that you can't send proof on the net it seems rather silly
>to demand it.
Offer to send it and I'll relay my mailing address...  of course it's
silly to assume you can squish that through the net.

>I could care less really,
Then I won't bother to reply.

Cheers, Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:59:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>
>Did you see the CBS special on crop circles? Not much conclusive evidence but
>there is a lot of good arial photography. Makes you realize real fast that
>these were not made with 2X4s and ropes.

No, I missed it.  (Was picking up the Father-in-Law from the airport for
his annual visit.  8-]

I did speak last night with a friend who had seen it, and while the
evidence isn't conclusive enough to prove what DID make them, it was
in my opinion enough to prove that they weren't created by 2x4's and
feet.  Whoever owns the patent for what caused the effects could be
rich...

Sure hope they figure it out someday...

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:38:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 22

Well, it seems that the predictable has happened.  The skeptics are
annoyed and the comments that actually contained information were
ignored (true, they weren't mine...).

I'd be interested in seeing a videotape of the CBS show on the
Crop Circles...  I believe it was called "Visitors".

Also, would like other information as it becomes available.

To those who wish to chalk all the crop circles up to the "safe" explanation
of "Man-made"...  well, there's nothing to say.  Nobody is listening.

See you, It's been fun.

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Personal Experience (was Re: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:41:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater) writes:
>Why did my name get in this????? Maybe I don't post enough of the
>article I am answering. I am not making that mistake this time.
>

Sorry, was obviously a mistake.  It IS tricky, at times, to get the
who said what straight...

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!centerline!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:39:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[...]
>          3.   Dr. Frank Stranges ( he works with  Valiant Thor
>               from Venus).

'Valiant Thor from Venus'?  C'mon John - this is just plain silly.

>          5.   Joan Parks with Max the  crystal skull.

'Max the crystal skull' - I'm guessing this is the infamous Million-Year-Old
Crystal Skull or however old it's supposed to be.  I'm sure I remember an
article in SI about this - pointers to it, anyone?  And perhaps a summary?

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!centerline!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:55:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rick Pavek) writes:
[...]
>
>The second has different characteristics such as the stalks are bent,
>not broken, and the cellular structure exhibits some kind of abberation.

First things first.  Now that it's been established that crop circles can
be hoaxed, circle-chasers have come up with these new criteria.  What
reputable research/investigation has established either of these phenomena?
And what reputable r/i has demonstrated the impossibility, or at least
extreme difficulty, of hoaxers producing these effects?

I'm not asking this of you, Rick - I'm throwing this open to the floor.
Anyone?

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!doc.ic.ac.uk!sot-ecs!of
From: [e-mail] (Fibre Optics)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:20:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 44
Nntp-Posting-Host: vicky

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fibre Optics) writes:
>>Obviously I can't _prove_ anything to you but I know several that were
>>created by humans last year. I know the guys that made them.
>>

>Did they let you watch them create them?  Or did you just take their
>word on it?

They did it as part of a TV programme. Terence Meaden (I think) was
conned the next day into pronouncing it 'genuine'.

>Actually, it's far easier to prove a human made a crop circle than it
>has been to prove an alien (or Plasma, or Bigfoot, or whatever) created
>one.

Quite.

>Yes, mine was a rhetorical question.

>And my point, all along, is that while some of the circles have apparently
>been made by men, no one has yet to prove that men made all of them.  Those
>that dismiss crop circles as being man-made may be hastily dismissing
>some that originate from other sources.

Hey, look, I agree with you. These hoaxed circles, and there were
lots, prove nothing. They're just noise on any signal there may be.
Last year's hoaxing activities effectively drowned out any signal.

>We can dance around semantics all day...  you'll not convice me that
>men created all of the circles.  There will always be room for doubt, at least
>until something else steps forward as an obvious explanation.

More or less my point. You did say _any_ circles though.
>--



--
Peter Harris   G4BDQ  |         Unusual exploding disclaimer  ->    (}|){//)
Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-)
Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\)
[e-mail]    |           Kerry Wendell Thornley              |||
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Hammergren)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <kivaman.714257553@milton>
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:52:33 GMT
Lines: 18

In a previous article  [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh) writes:

>The descriptions all sound like they were in California, and they all sound
>like incidents involving helicopters.  The newer generation of military
>helicopters are so quiet in "whisper" mode that you simply would not believe
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>it without seeing a demonstration.  Some police agencies have similar
>"civilianized" equipment.  It's even spreading to "normal" civilian systems
>who have to deal with noise complaints.

Methinks someone has been watching too much "Blue Thunder" lately.

All right, here's the damn smiley..  :-)

Mark Hammergren
[e-mail]

I can't believe I'm posting to alt.alien.visitors AGAIN!
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From: [e-mail] (The One Who Must Be Kept)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Date: 19 Aug 1992 15:53:06 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <jb!nqa=[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu



you make references to these "signs"...

could someone give me a list of the frequent "signs"
and what is usually associated with them.

- Tom Fox

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:32:47 GMT
Lines: 10

[e-mail] (Kev) writes:

>             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
>             spacecraft"
>          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?

    --Sure. That re-entry can be a real bitch, you know....  :-)

Duane

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <f7!nzx=[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 22:46:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>Considering that you can't send proof on the net it seems rather silly
>>to demand it.
>Offer to send it and I'll relay my mailing address...  of course it's
>silly to assume you can squish that through the net.
>
>>I could care less really,
>Then I won't bother to reply.

But aren't I responding to a reply?  :^)

>Cheers, Rick
>
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.

Rich

[e-mail]



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (richard.m.brack)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:14:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Garland O Burton) writes:
>
> did anyone see the "in search of" epsidode where the "rock hounds"
> found the "spark plug like device?"
>
> it was imbedded in a rock said to be many thousands of years old.
> what was that thing, where is it now and what do *they* call it.

Yea, I saw it.  Don't know what that thing was though....

What about those Indian hyroglyphics?  Elephant, Horse, UFO, Sin Wave.....


Rich...

--
{ the itchman cometh   /-/         _          i don't want to be your angel }
{ [e-mail] /-/        _|_|_          i want to be your witch!    }
{ att!cbnews!itch \-\/-/         ( * )tch                 -yello            }
{                  \/\/           /^\                                       }
Xref: icaen alt.prose:2013 alt.religion.kibology:3523 alt.sex.stories:1426 alt.alien.visitors:8652
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!bu.edu!wang!gozer!klm
From: [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride)
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Story about Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:19:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: GhostBuster Central - Southern NH Usenet Access, Nashua, NH
Lines: 15

[e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (C Squared) writes...
> >1) How should Kibo's name be pronounced?
>     b) Who the fuck cares?
> >2) Why wasn't there any sex in the story?
>     b) Who the fuck cares?
> >3) Does Kibo exist?
>        Who the fuck cares?

> OK, I give up, why is this in alt.alien.visitors?

Who the fuck cares?

> -Tom R.   [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11294 alt.alien.visitors:8653
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 17:09:41 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
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             My teacher then went on  the sides of Mt. Shasta with his car
     and drove all the way up to the lava on the sides of the
     mountain and this is one thing that I've never been able to figure
     out because no one knows of any such road.
             After hearing about this from my teacher I read  a
     few stories of people who had been taken inside the mountain
     and shown around.  According to them the people inside were a
     very advanced race of people and even had a cigar shaped space
     craft that sometimes comes out of the mountain and went out
     over the Pacific Ocean.  They were supposed to have a large
     city inside the mountain with a central sun that illuminated
     the area inside.
             That is about all of the information that I gave these
     electronic students and without my knowing anything about it
     they organized a group of about 4 of their number and made a trip
     up to Mt. Shasta two weeks later.
             Due to their being young and having a lot of nerve they went
     into
     the town of Mt. Shasta and started their own investigation.  They
     found a lady in the town of Mt. Shasta by the name of Lola Van Valer
     who had
     established a group called the Seekers and Servers.  This group was
     made to help tell the public the truth about the mountain.  After
     talk-
     ing with her for a while Nola could see that the boys were really
     sincere
     to find the truth so she sat one of the boys down with his tape re-
     corder and told him the following story; " My husband and I were camp-
     ing out on the sides of Mt. Shasta back in the l930's when we felt a
     large rock, on which we were standing, start to move."  We then heard
     a voice ask us if we would like to be taught.  We said that we would
     and the voice said for us to be by our camp fires that night and they
     would come and teach us.
             On that night they were by the camp fires and some small deer
     came up for a while then the men of the mountain came and taught them.
     They were taught for about 2 weeks then they had to be completely
     silent (say no words) and then they were shown the way how  to walk
     about 8 to 10 miles up the mountain to a large door. They went through
     this large rock door through a cold lighted tunnel to a large room
     with a long stone type table.  As they were taught they looked at the
     table and they were shown things they had done in previous lives.
     They were also told that they would  move to the town of Mt. Shasta
     and
     set up a center to teach people about the mountain and the teachings
     of the people in the mountain.  Nola had spent one of her previous
     lives living in the mountain  but not in a very high position or rank.
     Nola always would say that she never did do anything of any great im-
     portance in any of her previous lives.

             The main one that taught them was named Phylos.  He is the
     same
     one that inspired the writing of the book A Dweller of Two Planets
     by Oliver and Phylos.  You might call him sort of a spiritual being,
     guardian angel, spiritual temple master but he can make himself seen
     just like anybody else in the physical form.
             During the first year they took in something like 6 people or
     so.
     During other years they took in 20 or more.  I'll have to check on the
     tape recording of her story to get the exact numbers.  The people of
     the mountain would have the one that wanted to go inside the mountain
     to condition themselves for the climb for two weeks, be silent for
     one day and then the frequency inside the temple would be lowered
     for the people to come in.
             During certain times of the year music can be heard from the
     mountain that drifts for miles.  I sounds like an angel chorus.  Nola
     and her friends have recorded this before and have it on tapes.
             All of these experiences happened at a little place called
     Widow
     Springs.  This is a place that is near 3 giant trees that only their
     stumps now remain.  It is about 14 miles SE of Mt. Shasta, Calif.  The
     door is on the SE side of the mountain up at the top of Mud Creek at
     about the 11,200 ft. level.  The door is made of rock that looks like
     shiny coal (absentium).
             Now to get down to some of my experiences with the mountain.
     The
     first time I remember anything about the mountain must have been when
     I was going to the World's Fair in Seattle, Washington.  We had
     gone past the mountain, past Weed, Calif. and were looking out towards
     the mountain.  There was a broken down, barbed wire fence and then we
     saw a sign that said something like Temple of Gatama Budha or
     something
     about Sananda,  I don't remember exactly what it said.  We looked for
     the sign a few years later and it wasn't there.
             After I had received a few of the teachings from the people
     inside
     the mountain that my teacher had told me about I asked if it would
     be OK for  me to go up and meet the people who were putting out the
     teachings.  He said that he would check with them and they said to
     tell
     me to study for a couple of years and then they would let me come up.
     They were very busy and didn't have time to answer a lot of elementary
     questions.  After getting this answer I tried everything in the book.
     The first thing I attempted was to contact these people by telepathy
     and astral projection.  Next I attempted to contact the spiritual
     entities that were sending the lessons.  Within 3 days my teacher got
     another letter saying it would be OK if I come up to see them. I went
     up to see them and they were very nice to me.  The lessons were re-
     ceived by telepathy by this nice lady from some very highly
     evolved spiritual beings that are known by practically everybody that
     has a religious background.  So you could say the messages are sent
     from the people of the mountain to a physical person in the town of
     Mt.
     Shasta and they are then sent throughout the world.  I don't give out
     her address to everyone.  It's only for those who are called but if I
     were convinced that you were sincere I'd give you the address.  All
     people are welcomed to meet the Seekers and Servers.  They used to be
     at 628 Mt. Shasta Blvd. in Mt. Shasta, Calif. but now Nola is dead
     and I haven't been in contact with her group for many years.
             On my third trip I decided to try and meet Nola Van Valer in
     person.
     At the last minute a young electronic student showed up who fur-
     nished me transportation up there.  We got up there and met Nola.
     She was then about 72 years old, crippled in one leg or hip and a very
     stately lady.  She had a few people hanging around her like the
     disciples following Jesus Christ.  They were just very interested in
     what she had to say. and really drank in what she was was talking
     about. Nola's a lot like other psychics that I have had the pleasure
     of meet-
     ing.  She will ask you a few questions to see if you are
     really seeking the truth.  When she is sure that you are
     really truthful she will open up and tell you anything that
     is needful for you to know.  Nola has the following abilities;
     1. She can see the aura.  2. She can talk with your guardian
     angel.  3.  The men in the mountain can use her voice to talk
     to you.  While we were there she let us listen and record some
     tapes of people talking who  were from  inside the mountain.
             The electronic student and I decided that we would sleep
     on the side of the mountain at a place called Saucer Flats.
     It is an opening in the trees about 40 acres big on the west
     side of the mountain just off of the road on the way up to
     the ski lift.  It is just a place where there aren't any
     trees and it looks like a fine place to land a large flying
     saucer.  Some people call it Sand Flats.
             We got up there and it was a fine moonless night.  The
     stars were very bright and we saw all sorts of UFOs.  They
     would streak right to left, left to right, up and down and
     then on and off.  There were also large force fields that
     looked like waves of energy going through the air.  Ever so
     often the whole mountain and sky would oscillate on and off in
     intensity of light.  Then we saw two large shafts of light as
     large as a neon sign come on for a few seconds.  Next we saw
     two large white lights come on and come over the side of the
     hill.  This all was in the month of June when most of the
     mountain is covered with snow and ice.  There was also very
     small colored lights that would come on up in the snow (they
     were about 6 miles away).  It was quite a show.  They told
     me later that there was a young boy (about 9 years old) who
     could see hundreds of UFOs on nights like this while people
     by him were only seeing 3 or 4.  As we were staying there ever
     so often a deer or two would come up to us and we thought
     for sure that the men of the mountain would come up behind
     them but they never did.
             After spending a very cold night we went back down to
     Nola's.  We started making preparations to go over to Widow
     Springs hoping that we could meet the men of the mountain.
     After getting to Widow Springs Nola told me a lot of stories
     about the mountain.  Widow Springs got it's name from the fact
     that many years before the men of the mountain had befriended
     some female Indians who had been made widows when their husbands
     had been killed during a battle.  These Indian widows had camped
     out in that place and had been cared for by the men of the
     mountain.
             End of part 2
     That's all for now. John F. Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11295 alt.alien.visitors:8654 sci.skeptic:29238
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 17:16:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1>
Lines: 44

     Subject: Kelvin's UFOs.
             In the past I had a teacher or Guru who taught me
     many things.  In one of our conversations he told me about
     a man by the name of Kelvin Rowe, who lives down in Southern
     Calif. in a town called San Jacinto.  Merle (my teacher)
     mentioned quite a few things about Kelvin and that he had
     written a book called "A Call At Dawn" explaining how he
     had taken rides aboard space crafts from other planets.
             Kelvin is a retired heavy equipment operator (he
     drove catapillar tractors).
             After first hearing about Kelvin I exchanged a couple
     of letters with him and about 15 years later I finally
     set up an interview with  him.  By this time he is 82 years
     old but in good condition, but a little slower than he used
     to be.
             He then told me that he had contacted some space
     people near his home and he was taken on a lot over 200
     rides.  One of the many unusual things about Kelvin is that
     he was never able to bring any other  person along with
     him on his space craft trips.  He also said that at no time
     was he ever taken to another planet to land.  He was taken
     very close but never to another planet.
             When I was about to leave after interviewing him he
     came out with a statement that a lot of people tell me.
     The statement was "I could tell you something that probably
     you wouldn't believe".  His statement was that during his
     many trips aboard the flying saucers they finally taught
     him how to walk through a metal wall about 4 inches thick
     with his clothes on and come out the other side of the wall.
     I then told him my teacher Merle had told me about the fact
     that he (Kelvin) could do this thing so I was not too surprised.
             In my talking  with Kelvin I was informed that his wife
     had written the book about Kelvin's experiences.  Some of
     the space people even worked in the local grocery store in
     the past and his wife said she could recognize them as they
     drive down the road in front of her house.
             One way you could tell if they were space people is
     that they could walk into as room with the doors closed.
     So it looks like these people look like us.
     These space people were very attractive looking and sere from
     the planets Pluto and Jupiter.
             I'll leave you with this saying; One man or woman with
     makes a majority.
             That's all for now, John F. Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Whitley Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:52:33 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>  i gues the above attitudes of PLU's are why one of my favorite quotes is
>by an MD and Surgon, Dr. Greer, who is also the founder of CSETI:
>(paraphrased a little)
>
>"I deal with science everyday, life and death stuff. And I'm here to tell you
>UFO's and extraterrestrials are real; and just because Jon Q. Scientist says
>there not only means he's a SPIRITUAL CRETIN."

To paraphrase even more: "I am a scientist (pronounce demi-god), and I tell
you this is so-and-so.  If you say the opposite, you are a cretin."  That's
definitely the silliest choice of a favorite quote I ever heard.  It only
consists of an appeal to authority and a rude assertion of "I am definitely
right and you are not."  Well, it fits.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11298 alt.alien.visitors:8656 sci.skeptic:29241
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 17:46:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Chis, C Square, Chip and any other Forengee that may be out there:
Your questions remind me of the saying made by the gentleman of Spanish
decent in the classic movie  that had Humphrey Bogart in it "I don't
have to show you any stinking badges".  I do have some new material
that exlains why the MIB use the part of horses and cows in their
appearances. A friend of mine explained to me about Kibo and I am
honored to have him talk to me.  I would love to get my hands on one
of these rocks that can move. I'll try to get some more material on the net
about the MIB later usless they stop me.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 17:58:28 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 69

     Subject: UFOs and Magnetic Fields.
             About 10 years ago I went to a psychic fair and had
     a picture taken of my aura by a guy by the name of Guy.  From
     time to time I tried to get this person to sell me his camera
     but he would always give me some reason why he couldn't do it.
     He said that the camera system was invented and was made for
     him by a person that had come over from Russia.  The person
     had gone back to Russia and Guy couldn't make any more of
     them.
             Just a couple of months ago when I went to Phoenix
     for the UFO convention I saw a different person taking aura
     pictures with a slightly different aura camera.  I talked
     with him and he said he was now renting the camera from a person
     by the name of Guy Coggins.  He also gave me Guy's phone number
     (415-367-0369).  I gave him a call and set up an interview.  He said
     that he had a new type magnet field photographing system that
     could be reproduced on TV.  Guy  showed up and really had a lot
     of  equipment.  He is an E. T. just like I am (electronic technician
     that is not  extraterrestial) and I didn't attempt to try to get all
     of the
     secrets of how this system works.  I just tried  to get the overall
     story
     and not try to steal his invention.
             The system operates with you putting a person seated on
     a regular stool.  A screen of some sort is placed behind the
     subject , a light is projected towards the side of the subject.
     An Omega computer is used to program the sequence of steps and
     some  sort of device that projects strange color patterns is  put in
     front of the subject.  Our subject in this case was an attrac-
     tive  looking young lady.  She was asked put put one hand on one
     electrode and the other hand on another electrode.  The surface area
     that her hands were in contact with the electrodes was adjusted
     by placing more or less tape on each electrode.  After all of
     this  was done the computer  was operated so that at first a
     digital blocked sort of a presentation appeared on the screen
     area behind the subject.  Only areas that projected past the
     sides of the person's  body showed up on the screen, not the
     area right behind her body.
             At last the picture of her magnetic field came out on
     the screen.  It came out in different colors of blue, yellow,
     red and other colors.
             Guy then asked her questions as we observed her magnetic
     field.  She turned out to be a person of great dynamic energy.
     When she was asked what she thought  about the movie star Arnold
     Schwarzenegger  her aura blossomed out immediately.  I asked
     her some questions and got her laughing and yellow could be
     seen in the left hand side of her aura.
             I then asked him to look at my aura and  I got in front
     of the system.  We had a hard time even getting a good pre-
     sentation of me and finally figured out that it was because
     I had the flu and a cold at that time and my aura was very atten-
     uated.
              The picture of the aura cold be seen on the screen,
     through a remote TV monitor that he had with him, the re-
     gular TV or you could look at your own aura by looking into a
     mirror.
             Many people on Earth can see auras, most space people
     as far as the ones I know from Venus can see auras.   The mag-
     netic field around UFOs can be seen by everybody as it  reacts with
     the atmosphere.  Many times as a space craft goes up into the
     air the color of the light around it at night will change
     slowly from one color to another as the vibrational frequency
     changes.  In case a race of space people were going to separate
     the more desirable persons from the less desirable, how do you
     think they would do it?
             I'll leave you with this saying; Designers keep creating
     clothes to bring out a girl's figure, when what she wants is
     something to bring it in.
             That's  all for  now, John F. Winston..
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 18:20:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear RA: Did you know that your name RA is the name of a god? In answer
to your question it may seem silly but there are a lot of people from
Venus living here just ask anybody. The skull is not one million years
old but it's pretty old.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!morale
From: [e-mail] (Enrique Morales)
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: vccsouth19.its.rpi.edu
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:24:48 GMT
Lines: 54

[e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:

>> Stefan Gustavson writes:
>>
>> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
>> Posted: 6 Aug 92 17:25:43 GMT
>>
>> Org.  : Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
>>
>> [e-mail] (Steve MacDonald) writes:
>>
>> >Just to let people know there was an incident in the 11th century where
>> several
>> >monks in England saw a large explosion on the moon. It scared the crap out
>> of
>> >them and they thought the world was going to end. It could be very possible
>> >that they witnessed a large alien ship crashing on the moon or more likely
>> just
>> >regular alien lunar activity.
>>
>> >        no guns
>> >                Steve Macdonald
>>
>> Or, even more likely, a meteorite crash on the moon.
>> Sorry to point out the obvious. Didn't mean to spoil your fun.
>>
>>        /Stefan G ([e-mail])
>>


>And to spoil their fun further, analysis of the moon crater Tycho's strata
>(lines of ejected lunar material) shows its estimated impact date to coincide
>with the monk's sighting.  This was described in _Cosmos_, which BTW also
>contains a pretty good argument about the lack of good proof of actual alien
>visitations.  You'd think just ONE of these zillions of "crashed spaceships"
>might have produced one, ONE, just ONE inexplicable artifact or fragment.  So
>far, nada.
Has  A COVERUP BY GOV'T EVER OCCURED TO YOU?????????

I don't mean to be rude, but the gov't has been known to clear up all signs of anything they don't want known. So lack of evidence is not a totally sound argument because the possibility of cover-up is still there.


>But seeing that meteor impact must have been quite a sight.  It's a shame that
>people are so anxious to invent their own ideas about space when the real thing
>contains more fascinating events than most of us care to contemplate.  Is it
>just a coincidence that aliens always choose to abduct stupid people?

>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
>it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
>---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
>He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
>The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11308 alt.alien.visitors:8660 sci.skeptic:29253
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 21:45:15 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Sorry about that I got the wrong one on.
John Winston
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 21:47:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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     Subject: Interview with Skeptic.
         On Feb. 7, l992 I had an interview with Ralph Sheaffer the
     founder of the Bay Area Skeptics.  Ralph and I had a discussion
     of how the Amazing Randy had conducted an investigation of a TV
     preacher by the name of Peter Popoff.  It seems that Mr. Popoff
     main claim to fame was his apparent ability to go through a crowd
     and talk to people being led by  God to tell the people what their
     names were, what their problem was and proceed to tell them the
     way to solve their problem.  All of this was supposed to be done
     without ever talking with the people before.  The Amazing Randy
     heard about this man and enlisted the help of some people who were
     experts in all sorts of bugging devices and ways of tricking people.
         The results of their investigatiion was that the wife of Mr.
     Popoff would go through the crowd prior to the services and talk
     to the people asking them their names, problems, addresses and
     what have you, recording this information for later use in the
     service.
     The wife was back in another area and would broadcast her infor-
     mation to her husband who had a receiving device in his ear that
     many people thought was just a hearing aid.  The investigators
     were able to record this by video and play the audio while she was
     talking to her husband.  The conversation went like this; Peter
     Popoff, "Oh yes I'm getting a message from God,"  There is a man
     here =========.  Mrs. Popoff; "Yes he's the fat man in the front
     row with the red shirt on the second seat from the end of the row."
     He has arthritis in his hip.  P. P.  Oh yes God is telling me about
     this man ========.  Then he tells him what he can do to fix up
     his problem.
         All of this was shown on major TV and the preacher lost his
     TV show but he's still on radio.
         So it looks like the Amazing Randy suceeded one more time.
         I'll leave you with this saying; Even the best family tree
     has its sap.
         This is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston.  I
     am not Don.  Don is not me.
         Number 52.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11311 alt.alien.visitors:8662 sci.skeptic:29258
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:19:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 22

In article <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> [e-mail] (Chris Kostanick 806 1044) writes:
>Do the Men In Black bleed? What handgun load would you recommend to
stuff deleted

Some of the accounts I've read indicate they have the ability to paralyze
their victims with a rather strong emotional shock...  and it's apparent
from the same reports they can read the thoughts of the victims, too, since
many of the reports indicated they were contacted before they were able
to report their sighting...

The impression is that they could read the thoughts of the victims, rather
than probe the mind for memories...

So they would likely either (sure, entirely hypothetical) be able to
sense the .357 doorbell or prohibit your use of it.

Rick
--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:25:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>And DON'T let anybody hypnotize you unless you have a reason.  If you want to

What about the abduction victims that remembered being abducted WITHOUT
ever being hypnotized?

Why is the assumption made that if the subject was hypnotized for the
purposes of recollecting incidents, and the incidents happen to include
abduction, that the hypnotist HAD to have lead the subject?

I mean, we're not talking about lounge act Hypnotists here... this is
a clinical setting.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:51:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 10

The transmission that was taped was probably someone using packet radio or
some other type of telemetry.  I don't see how they can definitively identify
the signal as an alien signal, or even speculate that it is.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: David Jacobs to lecture in London
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: abductions
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tin
Organization: MRC Human Genome Resource Centre
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:33:42 GMT
Lines: 22

Dr David Jacobs, author of Secret Life will be giving
at lecture on Wednesday 26th August 1992 at Friends
House, 173 Euston Road, London, NW1. Doors open at
6:30pm, admission 4.5 pounds.


David Jacobs book is based on his work with over 300
UFO abduction witnesses and is subtitled First Hand
Accounts of UFO Abductions. He works closely with a
number of other abduction researchers including Budd
Hopkins. His talk is billed as being based on these
researches.

Jacobs was also one of the participents at the recent
Abduction conference held at MIT.

3~z3~3~
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11314 alt.alien.visitors:8666 sci.skeptic:29268
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 06:19:40 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Astral Folk: I just back from the OOBE train and I feel better than
I have in the past when I came back. Not exactly like a million dollars
but maybe a dollar and six bits. I came back thinking of Mt. Shasta. We
might should try to go there someday. We should try to upgrade this train
from Astral to Spirtrual or Celestrial because it doesn't cost much more
to go first class like the people who study Eckancar (founded by the
late Paul Twitchell). I went by in the physical and visited Jeff at his
house in San Jose, Calif. and he told me of his experience of meeting a
person called Mark who had the ability to take people on a visualization.
Mark took Jeff on a visualization inside of Mt. Shasta.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.prose:2015 alt.religion.kibology:3528 alt.sex.stories:1435 alt.alien.visitors:8667 comp.os.coherent:5064
Newsgroups: alt.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.sex.stories,alt.alien.visitors,comp.os.coherent
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!orion.oac.uci.edu!ttinews!sequoia!troeger
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Troeger)
Subject: Re: Story about Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sequoia.tti.com
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:09:53 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (C Squared) writes...
>>1) How should Kibo's name be pronounced?
>    b) Who the fuck cares?
>>2) Why wasn't there any sex in the story?
>    b) Who the fuck cares?
>>3) Does Kibo exist?
>       Who the fuck cares?
>OK, I give up, why is this in alt.alien.visitors?
>-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Who the fuck cares?


Jeff Troeger - Senior Member of the Technical Staff
Transaction Technology Inc. - A subsidary of Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Bl. Santa Monica, Ca. 90405 [phone] x3153
Path: [e-mail] or [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:22:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 14


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes...
>The transmission that was taped was probably someone using packet radio or
>some other type of telemetry.  I don't see how they can definitively identify
>the signal as an alien signal, or even speculate that it is.
>
>Mike
>

That was exactly the impression I got, too. Whoever came across the signal must
have never listened to shortwave radio before, because you hear stuff like that
all through the HF bands, all the time. Telemetry, pagers, RTTY, packet radio,
satellites, radar, RC models and so on and so on...
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:06:07 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Shannon White) writes:
>>This business about the cattle mutilations has gone far enough.  I am a farmer
>
>    Simple minds are predisposed to simple answers.

This is oversimplified >:->

You think all farmers have simple minds?
You think every true answer has to be complex?
You think everyone who has a simple answer has a simple mind?
You think everyone who has a complex answer is a genius?

No, probably not.  You only wanted to use an ad hominem attack.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: more on K-2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:23:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Usenet Admin) writes:
>>
>>    Anyone who has a shortwave radio and a tape recorder can record
>>noises that sound like the description presented here.  By and large,
>>pretty much anything you hear is either some naturally occurring
>>phenomenon or is cuased by FAX transmissions, high speed computer
>>controlled morse code, digital transmissions, encrypted audio, etc.
>>
>>Pray tell, just what makes them so sure tha anything they have
>>heard is alien, i.e., what proof of this do they offer?
>>
>>Duane
>
> True, true, all true. However, the K-2 stuff says they used RDF to find
> the source and found in was being produced by a secret alien base. Personally
> I think it was produced with a very expensive sythesizer. Want a copy? I
> can't find any copyright infor on the tape or memo they sent me so I
> think I can legally send you a copy. Hmmmm...Maybe I should check with
> the Greys first. :> Contact me via e-mail if you want to hear it.
>
> Gregg.

Didn't that one turn out to be caused by the crystals in one of the security
cameras? A lot of 'pulsars' were caused by this. Moving dishes caused
interference, explaining why it wasn't constant.
JMcVey
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: more whittley streiber, 7731. Read 'So much rom..'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:08:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 28

Further to 7731

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>>Most abductees never talk about their experiences because people like you
>>call those experiences "obviously false" just because they took a ride
blah blah blah
>>messages given them to relate to others. Most have never sought to attract
>>attention to themselves, let alone written a book about the experience,
>>and many will not step forward for the betterment of man-kind because
>>of PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
>
>   Oh, ca-ca.   People Like Us (PLU's) so not apply any stricter standards
>   of evidence to this topic than to any strong claim.  If someone claims
>   that heavier-than-air machines can fly or pictures can be transmitted
>   through thin air or razors placed under a pyramid become sharper or
>   inexpensive exothermic cold nuclear fusion is possible then I expect
>   evidence for these claims.
blah blah
>   don't believe the former, so why should I believe the latter?   The
>   bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.
OK No evidence for All Powerfull Entities etc, BUT their is concrete
evidence for the existance of aliens and there is a good possibility
of abductions etc. This evidence is all around you. Infact, one of
the points in the Rio TalkFest was cutting down the ammount of
evidence. The overcrowding of this planet by evidence and the destruction
of the habitats of other type of evidence is a serious environmental
problem. GET DA DRIFT?
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:39:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>>These excuses about why nobody gets physical evidence of "abductions"
>>>are just a little too convenient -- sort of like the Christian Fundy's
>>>excuses for fossils, carbon dating and other evidence which appears
>>>to make the world seem older than 6000 years: being God, He made the
>>>fossils and other evidence too.
>>>
>>>Excuses, excuses.
>>
>>What do you want? Photo's? You claim they're faked. Metal from the ship?
>>It's turned up before, but seems to be lost now if the government gets
>>wind of it. The only reason we don't have lots of evedence is because your
>>and my taxes go to suppressing it.
>>
>>IF the Corona crash went to court, you could prove it happened. [..]
>
> Excuses, as he said.  It's simple:  You give us proof, you get our belief.
> Look at it as a business transaction.  You can't go into a supermarket and say,
> "My credit card has turned up before, but seems to be lost now" or "The only
> reason I don't have money is because of my taxes" or "IF I went to court, I had
> money" and expect they give you anything for it.

good grief.... trillions of lifeforms on one small steel ball and some
people have the gall to say there is no concrete proof for the existance
of aliens in this universe.

John McVey


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 'So much Romanticism'. Cleaned up version
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:38:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 79

Right.. Now that I have my editor problems solved (bad emulation), and that
Jeff seemed to like it alot, I'll do it again, clarifying parts.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> One or two me remember me from alt.atheism and my
> comment about *the wanker* and his beloved uranium. Go read it the
> come back, if you havent already.

There was a post from some theist debating over time's infinity-ness. I cant
remember the name etc, but I'm not going to go thru 400 posts to find it.
Basically he said that sice radium comes from uranium, and if that time had
been infinite, all the uranium would be gone. Bullshit say I. Matter is
continually being created, destroyed (to & from energy), or generally
rearranged inside suns. This *wanker* assumed that all matter that currently
exists was created at the same time as the universe in which it exists.
Nonsense, of course.

I then asked him about aliens, thinking that this was the same type of moron
that thinks a god created life on this planet only. A rely would have been fun
to tear to shreads.

> The proof of the existence of aliens I was referring to,
> it's us, naturally.

> Anyway, why should one insignificant planet near one
> insignificant star etc etc etc one can only surmise
> that aliens do exist and the proof is our own existance.
> Whats this got to do with alt.altheism? I ma not so closed-minded
> think that we DEFINETLY WERE NOT created, but I
> refuse to believe that a single evelasting allpowerful
> entity would create a tiny planet etc for the
> simple (and romanticaly cute) reason of love. I do believe
> that there is every possibility that we are the ceation of
> another race of beings, types just as fallible as every other
> living thing I've met. There's proof for that too! Our
> very own scientists are capable of creating totally new lifeforms from old
> ones,
> (kinda blows out that stupid argument about the bird and a plane &
> their complexity).

One Ridha Souissi (I think it was her) said that although men[sic] can create
planes but not birds then Allah is great, praise be to Allah

>
>
> Aliens do exist. They probably have been here before, and if they
> are around at the
> moment, I think they are having a ball laughing at our antics and questions
> about their existance.

Come to think of it, I know have one possible reason for aliens not wanting
us to find all about them (if they were really serious about making contact
they'd land in Rockafella Plaza, Rundle Mall, Leicester Square etc.)
They are using us as entertainment. Remeber the textual rendition of
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - to observe is to disturb. One or
two of their vessels may be glimpsed to get us talking, but they can't have
zillions of 'SPYCAM for Earth Soapie !!!!' thingies since the novelty
of aliens would quickly wear off.

> Also, for what possible reason would aliens with superior technology
> always go straight for the American guvmint, hmmmm? Why not British ,
> Australian etc,

Yeh man. Shit! Somalia need all the help it can get. Don't forget the Croats
and Bosnians, and all the other peoples in trouble.


> and what possible reason would our governments have for concealing it.(to get
> here implies superior technology)

I don't seriously believe that if this thing about 'Greys abducting with
government blessing' is true that a fair number of rightuous officials would
be leakier than a collostomy bag made from tissue paper

The rest was an expression of general disinterest. Aliens exist. It doesn't
worry me.

Thanks Jeff, really made my night.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!leafusa!hal
From: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Stealth UFO or something?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: possible explanation
Keywords: I don't know but maybe
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 14:50:10 GMT
Expires: 9/20/92
Lines: 15

I have frequently seen the sort of thing you describe at airports.  It comes
from the combination of wingtip vortex and hot jet exhaust.  It forms a
cone-shaped "bubble" of swirling warm air that persists and travels at a fairly
low altitude.  It is most commonly seen in cold weather and can persist for
several minutes.  The formation of these things requires both a regular
swirl of air (as with a wingtip vortex) and a locally-heated pocket of air to
be trapped in the vortex.  They are generally quite low (travelling on
ground-effect dynamics) and could be very easily mistaken for a larger object
at a greater distance.

To see more, sit off the end of the active runway at a commercial airport on
a cold day.  These things could be generated by any combination of warm air
and turbulance, although not as reqularly as when formed by heavy slow jets
under full power.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11315 alt.alien.visitors:8675 sci.skeptic:29278 alt.religion.kibology:3534
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology,alt.hemp
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!mv!gozer!klm
From: [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: GhostBuster Central - Southern NH Usenet Access, Nashua, NH
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 15:34:51 GMT
Lines: 20

[e-mail] (C Squared) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

> >After it landed in the middle of a field, and took off, a mysterious marking
> >was discovered in the field.  It was rectangular, on a post, and said "Keep
> >off the grass."

> Actually, it landed in the middle of the BASEBALL field which is INSIDE
> the ASTROdome.  But that's perfectly normal, because superior lifeforms
> could easily fly through the dome (or just break through it for that
> matter.)  The weird part is, THERE'S NO GRASS!!!

And we can thank the Republican Party for that.

--
Kevin  "George Bush was a pilot in the Navy.  When he got his butt shot out
        of the sky, his life was saved by a parachute that had webbing made
        out of hemp.  George has spent most of his adult life trying to
        obliterate this extremely useful plant.  Why is this?"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!grip.cis.upenn.edu!jmv
From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:00:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Enrique Morales) writes:
> [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:

>[..]  You'd think just ONE of these zillions of "crashed spaceships"
> >might have produced one, ONE, just ONE inexplicable artifact or fragment.  So
> >far, nada.
> Has  A COVERUP BY GOV'T EVER OCCURED TO YOU?????????
>
> I don't mean to be rude, but the gov't has been known to clear up all signs of anything
>they don't want known. So lack of evidence is not a totally sound argument because the
>possibility of cover-up is still there.
>


Sure, it's well known the US government controls the whole universe,
covering up every single proof of alien landing or crashing.
Should read the news, buddy. Claims of UFO crashes only come from
the US. In Europe, UFO crashes just don't occur. So either
the Aliens just love to crash in America, or they are
attracted by the Bermuda Triangle magnet, or the US cover
up ALL the crashes in Europe, or....


THE WHOLE THING IS CRAP.


Still waiting for an alien artifact,

JM.


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!news.bbn.com!think.com!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!keps.kodak.com!news
From: mouse
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke??? Absolutley
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:10:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (KEPS News Service)
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Kev) writes:
>
>          This just heard on the radio coming in to work this morning;
>            "The main reasons for alien visitations to earth
>             is because the aliens are hooked on our tobacco products
>             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
>             spacecraft"
>          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?
>          Thanks------
>
>
>
>
>
>*******************************************************************
>No cool (s)cig yet
>*******************************************************************
>
>
>
Of course there are aliens who smoke. I work with one. As a matter of fact
he likes smoking so much he (AKA Bob) decided to stay on earth. However I
notice he has been a little home sick lately. How can you tell if someone
is an alien?  They like to read Fantasy trilogies in reverse order.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!mksol!degroot
From: [e-mail] (doug degroot)
Subject: Book: The Bible and UFOs (can you help?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: bible, UFO
Sender: degroot@mksol (doug degroot)
Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:48:52 GMT
Lines: 27


I am trying to find what appears to be an obviously out of print book. I found
this book in the Merridian, Mississippi library, of all places, while selling
Bibles in Mississippi the summer I graduated from high school. The book was
entitled something like "The Bible and UFOs" or "UFOs and the Bible" or whatever.
I really cannot be sure anymore. It was red and notebook paper sized (I think).
It had been written as a Ph.D. or Doctor of Divinity or whatever dissertation by
a Catholic priest/seminary student/whatever. It was superb! He, of course, was
excommunicated because of it.

I have tried several times over the years through book search companies to find
this book, but to no avail. I even tried calling the Merridien Mississippi
library, but they could not help.

If you
1. know of this book
2. have any ideas how I might extend my search
3. or have any other clues,
would you please reply directly to me at
    [e-mail]

I would be *most* appreciative.

Thank you,

Doug DeGroot
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:29:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Enrique Morales) writes:
>I don't mean to be rude, but the gov't has been known to clear up all signs of anything they don't want known. So lack of evidence is not a totally sound argument because the possibility of cover-up is still there.

To validate his point here...  all you have to do is watch the Republican
National Convention going on right now and see the President's men
viciously supressing the "ACT UP" and other gate-crashers.

They don't just lead them away... they're tackled (and the one I saw
this morning showed a VERY aggressive tackle...  it even took out some
of the people sitting nearby...) and they way they tackle makes what
the LAPD did to Rodney look like a Sunday picnic.

No, I'm not on the side of the hecklers.  I do think their civil liberties
were knocked out of them, though.

If that isn't an example of the government supressing information it doesn't
want known, then I can't imagine what would be.

I post this only to support the assertation of the gentleman above.  If
people would like to follow this thread I would STRONGLY suggest you pick
it up in an appropriate newsgroup like:  alt.republican.thugs or
alt.ignore.voters.  I won't respond to this issue here and be responsible
for what happened in October Suprise...

Rick



--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Saucer Crash Claims
Summary: Not limited to the US
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:48:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
>Claims of UFO crashes only come from
>the US. In Europe, UFO crashes just don't occur. So either
>the Aliens just love to crash in America, or ...

  Actually, I have read claims of crashes in Sweden, Poland, Brazil, and
Russia, to name a few, and I'm not even a UFO expert.
  It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
to make the rest of us live in it too.

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11323 alt.alien.visitors:8681
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From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:19:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

)             My teacher then went on  the sides of Mt. Shasta with his car
)     and drove all the way up to the lava on the sides of the
)     mountain and this is one thing that I've never been able to figure
)     out because no one knows of any such road.
)
)     That's all for now. John F. Winston.

Aha!  Hey I know that road *very* well.  See, I have a 4'x3' poster
of Mt. Shasta in my truck (right behind the seats on the back wall)
and it simply *enhances* driving anywhere, because wherever I go I'm
always on my way to or from Mt. Shasta!  It's been in my truck for
over 2 years now.  Honest truth.  I didn't know the significance of
it until now.  Well anyway, wherever you go, there you are.

[insert the sound of trees here]


--
Bob Pietkivitch     | "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |  -- Genesis, Stagnation 1970
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:52:43 GMT
Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>>                                       Either the challenge is inherently
>>unanswerable (rhetorical), or it does in fact have a solution.  Which is it?
>>
>Indeed, as above, the point is simply that you [skeptics] cannot prove the
>absolute statement that man and his tools did create all of the crop
>circles.  Fair is fair.  I cannot provide an alien in a spaceship...
>or plasma toroids, or any other evidence that says man didn't create all
>of the circles.  We, sir, are at an impasse.

No, we are not.  Skeptics can't prove what you want them to prove because it
is PRINCIPALLY IMPOSSIBLE, and you just can't prove what you want to prove,
without such a fundamental reason.  You need to know what a null hypothesis is.
Look at, for example, the neutrino mass.  Is it zero, or is it not?
It is sure *close to* zero, so close that we can't tell the difference.
Suppose it is zero, then we will never know it is, because though we can
improve the measurement methods, we can never make them so good that the
inaccuracy goes to zero.  Thus the hypothesis that it is zero is NOT PROVEABLE
IN PRINCIPLE, and the opposite hypothesis is NOT FALSIFIABLE.  Thus the
physicists say, "We don't know what is right, but it's probably zero.  Perhaps
that's wrong, but the burden of evidence is on the "non-zero" side, because
the "zero" side cannot be proven in principle.  So we accept the null hypo-
thesis until it is disproven.  Zero is default."  Anybody who says things like
"Prove the null hypothesis" only gets a strange look.

We have the same situation here.  The null hypothesis is "No crop circles are
made by means other than men."  This is default, and it is assumed true until
the opposite is proven.  To demand that one prove the null hypothesis is
SILLY.

Another null hypothesis is "No crop circles are made by men."  This is also
not proveable.  One will never be able to prove men are uncapable of making
crop circles.  Therefore nobody has asked you to prove that.  The burden of
proof is indeed on the other side.  It is necessary to prove that man CAN
make crop circles.  You demanded that proof too, and *this* demand is sensible
from a logical standpoint.  Bravo.  Go on like that.  (that sounds more
patronizing than it should)

I'm not arguing here that you have to accept each null hypothesis.  I only
say it's extremely poor logic to demand proof before you believe in a null
hypothesis, while it is only natural to demand proof before you disbelieve a
null hypothesis.  I don't know much about crop circles but I know about logic.
And your logic is bad.

You can say "Prove that humans can make crop circles"
You can say "Prove that humans can make this special sort of crop circles with
  bent stalks"
You can say "Prove that humans can make this special sort of crop circles with
  burns, radioactivity, bent stalks, and a cloud continously hovering over it"
But you can't say "Prove that humans made all crop circles"

In another posting you write:
>But my demand for proof was no less fair than yours...
which is of course wrong (see above).

In yet another you write:
>Well, it seems that the predictable has happened.  The skeptics are
>annoyed and the comments that actually contained information were
>ignored (true, they weren't mine...).

Skeptics will jump on those things which are easiest to jump on.  Your logic
was easier to dismember than actual information, which would need other
information...

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Saucer Crash Claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:15:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 38
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
> >Claims of UFO crashes only come from
> >the US. In Europe, UFO crashes just don't occur. So either
> >the Aliens just love to crash in America, or ...
>
>   Actually, I have read claims of crashes in Sweden, Poland, Brazil, and
> Russia, to name a few, and I'm not even a UFO expert.
>   It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
> to make the rest of us live in it too.
>
> --
> Kevin Cherkauer
> [e-mail]
>
> Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.


I must apologize for my imprecise terms. First, I was talking about
about what I know, i.e. Western Europe (European Community that is,
plus Switzerland), second, anybody can claim he saw a UFO crashing five minutes
ago. I was speaking about substanciated claims. In France, the last
case I heard of was a so called UFO crashed nearby a highway...
which happened to be a giant disco sphere (you know the ones
tessalated with mirrors hanging from the ceiling of discotheques)
dropped here after a truck accident.

Again, I will accept with pleasure any reference about a UFO
crash in which something else than two witnesses and a vague
hole on the ground were found by investigators.

>   It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
> to make the rest of us live in it too.

That was never my intention. As for the world of my construction, in what other world
I am supposed to live ? But that's another discussion. Let's look at facts, ok ?

JM.
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From: [e-mail] (JCJ)
Subject: Re^2: the missing link
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunl18
Organization: Huh?
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:27:21 GMT
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:
>
>Hey, I know *I'm* an alien!
>...
>Hey! You can't PROVE I'm not who I say I am!

My Kibo newsletter with the channelings of Roobah Doobah says you are
not an alien.  Therefore you *can't* be one.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11330 alt.alien.visitors:8685 sci.skeptic:29300
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:05:04 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 33

     SUBJECT : THE OSTERICH PEOPLE

          In an isolated village of the jungle reigion of Zimbabwie, Africa
     there is a group of about 100 people who are called the Osterich
     people.  They are called this because of their unusual feet. Their
     feet are shaped like the feet f an Osterich, having only two large
     toes on each foot , but these are pretty bigso they can get good
     traction when it comes to trudging though the jungle mud. These toes
     are also very nimble, and can be used to pick things up. They are a
     dark skinned race of people and other than their feet, they look like
     anyone else.
          A French team  headed by famed anthropologist Dr. Etienne
     Charbonal were investigating tthis group of people and eventually got
     there confidence. A group of the Osterich people (if not all of them)
     showed up one night, minus their clothes, having silver paint all over
     their bodies and invited the good doctor for a midnight hike. After
     going into the jungle for hours, the doctor  and team were shown a
     large silver dome. Most of the space craft was covered with
     vegitation. The native people then began to dance wildly around the
     craft singing a song to their ancestors  of the sky.
          The dome was like nothing on earth. On the way back, from the
     craft, one of the elders of the group told Dr. Charbonal that  200
     years ago, the large "spinning sun" had fallen from the sky, bringing
     the tribal ancestors to this remote part of the jungle  area.  That
     was all anyone rembered.
          More will be known when the French team returns to the jungle  to
     study the UFO.
     Information source: Sept. 26,1989 Sun pg. 7.

        I'll leave you with this saying; if it wasn't for the optimist, the
     pessimist would never know how happy he isnt.
        This is being posted for Don Showen  for  John Winston.  I am not
     Don. Don is not me.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:08:46 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 47

     Subject: Our Sun.
             At the presemt time I'd like to make a statement that
     will probubly make most conventional scientist roll on the
     floor laughing.  The statement is there are people living
     on the Sun and they have come to the Earth in the past.
             Some of you may have watched Shirley MacLane's TV
     documentary about UFO's a few years back.  Her experiences
     were with a man down in Puru and a lot of UFO informatiion.
     This man's name is Charles A. Silvas and after seeing that the
     show was a sucess he decided he deserved somthing for
     his  information, so he sued Shirley for a great deal of money.
     I don't know if he ever collected any money or not.
             Charles wrote a book about his actual experiences in a
     book called "Date With The Gods."  In the book he explains his
     meeting a very pretty, young looking lady by the name of Rama from
     another palnet.
             While Rama was teaching Charles about sace and etc.,
     the subject came to our Sun.  Here are some of her main points;
     The  Sun is a world like any  other except it's very big.  There's
     no fire on its surface, no more than on the Earth or any
     other planet.  In fact, even less, because it's  a very old
     world and it's cooling process is greater.  The humanity is similar
     to Earth except lighter and taller, and more advanced in know-
     ledge.
             The Sun has its own self-lighted light,reflected by
     the light of the spirits.  It attracts its light from the other
     solar systems.
             Imagine a huge magnifying glass in the universe.  This
     magnifying glass is an atmospheric layer between the Sun and
     the planets.  It works something like this; The Sun emits
     energy rays, and when they hit this atmospheric  layer, they
     ignite into fire and light.  At a given point in the universe,
     there is a cosmic layer between the planets and the Sun.
             There are many religions  whose sources of life and re-
     ligious inspiration is the Sun.  The  Incas, Egyptians, Mayans,
     Aztecs and many others said they were descendants of the Sun.
             This information agrees a great deal with a lot of
     other information that has come to me except the Sun may consist
     of abhout 11 different worlds that rotate  and cause the dif-
     ferent cycles of the Sun spots.  I'm still open to new infor-
     mation.
             I'll leave you with this saying; A pessimist is a woman
     who thinks she'll be unable to fit her car into a certain
     space.  An optimist is a man who thinks she won't try.
             This being posted by Don Showen for John Winston.
     I am not Don.  Don is not me.
             Number 47.
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From: [e-mail] (Geoff Lane)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:30:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Enrique Morales)
writes:

>Has A COVERUP BY GOV'T EVER OCCURED TO YOU?????????
>I don't mean to be rude, but the gov't has been known to clear up all signs
>of anything they don't want known. So lack of evidence is not a totally
>sound argument because the possibility of cover-up is still there.

It's curious that a government that can be so successful at hiding the
existance of aliens was totally incapable of hiding the the events
surrounding Watergate - a much simpler thing to hide.

[Of course when you wear your paranoid glasses this paradox is simple to
explain:  You only put your full effort in hiding the REALLY important
secrets. In any case Nixon was expendable because he wouldn't approve the
export of raw human flesh for sale in the alien's version of a deli!]



--
Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: [e-mail]
UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:12:38 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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     One year when Nola and her husband were getting some people
     ready to go into the mountain a certain lady was trying to
     make it in also.  She had worn a very pretty white silk dress
     into this area against the advice of all of the other people.
     She wouldn't listen though.  Mr. Van Valer was a healer in no
     uncertain terms and he made plenty fo money from this ability.
     When he healed he always used a certain large bowl and some water.
     This lady was running around the camp with her dainty dress and
     high heeled shoes on when she saw a person cutting wood with
     an ax.  She then said that she'd like to cut some wood so
     they let her have it.  She hadn't choped very long when she
     missed the wood and chopped her foot.  It really opened her
     foot up.  She was screeming with great vigor so they brought her
     to Mr. Van Valer.  He put her foot in the bowl of water and
     dried it off.  It was completely healed.  This so shocked
     her that she left the mountain and never came back.
             Another story she told was that on one occassion a group
     had come to the mountain to gain entrance and had not fol-
     lowed the instructioins on how to prepare themselves properly
     (I believe they didn't guit smoking while they were in the area)
     and they didn't make it into the mountain. They got all the
     way up to the door but the door would not open.  One of the
     men that hadn't guit smoking was so mad that he kicked the
     door with his foot and used a little bit of language that
     one does not learn in sunday school.
             On the way up to the door the people must walk through
     an area that has very large pine trees that are so thick that
     it is nearly dark at the ground level even when the sun is
     out.  To get through this area the men of the montain sug-
     gest that the hikers tie toilet paper to the branches of
     the trees so they can find their way out.  They do this
     all the way up to where the tree line is (above which
     the teees can't grow because it's too cold).  One group
     decided that it wasn't important that they should do this
     and sure enough they got lost in the thickest part of the
     forest.  The big strong men really got scared and were
     singing the blues when Nola told them all to hush up and she
     was going to pray.  She prayed,  "Lord just send us a sign
     to show us how to get out of here". In a short while a
     small bird flew near them for a minute then started to fly
     away a little at a time.  They followed the bird and got out
     OK by going in the right direction.
             On another time with another group the hikers were directed
     by the men of the mountain to go to a certain place on the
     mountain to pick out a rock that contained some gold.  Each
     person was  allowed one rock.  Nola got a fairly big one and it
     brought about l50 dollars when they had it sold for the gold
     in it.  Nola's husband got one a little smaller than her's
     but he got about 230 dollars for it.  They were told not to try
     to come back to that area again but one of the men later
     tried to go back into the area on his own.  He came in con-
     tact with some type of being that scared him so bad that he
     never came near the mountain again (it was a very large being).
             On one of Nola's trips inside the mountain she was
     shown gigantic bends of corn.  These bends were lined up for
     a great distance.  In other stories it was said that there
     are large amounts of pure gold inside the mountain, enough gold
     to pay off the national debt several times over.  They are even
     said to have a device that can make gold out of dirt but let's
     get back to the story of Nola and her corn.  Nola was
     given some corn and it looked like Indian corn (it had many
     colors).  She planted some of this corn and it grew and pro-
     duced corn but when she replanted this seed that she had grown
     it wouldn't grow.
             So those were some of the stories that Nola told me while
     I was waiting around at Widow Springs.  It was getting late
     and I told Nola that I might as well walk over to the three
     stump area and try  to send a telepathic message to the men of
     the mountain to say goodbye to them.  I got over to that area,
     which is about 200 yards form Widow Springs and it has a
     clear view of the entire mountain that will just take your
     breath away.  After doing what I had come there to do I
     walked back to Nola.  She asked me if I had seen that being
     that was walking along with me when I was going up the
     road to the three trees.  I said  "Oh no I sure didn't, you
     should have told me about it".  She then told me that it was
     no problem because he is beside you right now.  I then looked
     beside myself but couldn't see anything because it was a being
     in the astral but I believe I could perceive him like you can
     sometimes tell when someone is looking at you when you can't
     see them behind you.  Nola proceeded to talk with the being and
     explained him to me.  The being was male that weighed in the
     hundreds of pounds, in other words more than 200 lbs., maybe
     220 llbs.  The being's name was Jahieba and he was my first
     temple master.  He was the being assigned to me from that time
     on to give me guidance in certain areas.  He had on a white robe
     with a turban type headdress that had a sort of golden ornament
     on the side. Most of these beings are very beautiful.
     Next Nola introduced me to my guardian angel and up to that
     time I didn't known much about any such things.  Guardian angels
     are beings who have not taken on a physical body before and
     they are neither male nor female. My guardian angel's name
     is Lorna which really sounds like a female but really isn't.
     After getting these beings to work with me my life really
     changed and all sorts of miracles started happening to me.
             About this time Nola saw that I was going to have to leave
     so she told me to shut up.  She would read my mind and see
     what questains I had in my mind.  She would state the question
     and them give me the answer.  I believe the first question
     had to do with me wondering if I could take some young boys
     with me and go into the mountain, get some gold, sell it and
     use this money to finance the groups of light in the world.
     Nola then answered the question.  My second question that she
     read my mind about was why was my sister born deformed and she
     answered that.  Nola also told me when I first got started
     in my incarnations here on Earth.
             After Nola got through with me she turned to the young man
     with me and read his mind.  She said, "You are wondering why
     you haven't been given a guardian angel and let me tell you that
     you have been." Then she proceeded to tell him all he needed
     to know.
             That young man and I proceeded to go back to our area that
     we came from and I never saw him again that I can remember.
     After getting back to the Bay Area then my training really
     started.  My teacher would give me books about ESP, UFOs and I
     would study the temple teachings from Mt. Shasta.  At one
     time I was studying so hard that I nearly went into mental
     burnout (when your mind snaps due to over work).  This happens to
     a few people in college and it kills them. My teacher could
     see this in my face and countenence and had me stop all studying
     for a while until I had a chance to get better.  I finally got
     OK after about 2 weeks.  From that time forward he taught me
     constantly for the next two years and I was still in contact with
     him until he died in a car accident about three years ago.
                                     Chapter 2
                   The Screaming Voices of Mt. Shasta.

     In l968 it was my good pleasure to meet a very interesting
     man.  He showed up one day at a sunday morning church service.
     He wasn't a member of the same type church that I was but
     did come to our services that morning and when we asked him
     how he decided to come to our church service he just told
     us that the Lord directed him and his wife out that way and
     there they were.  This sort of shocked some of the people
     attending the church because they didn't believe that Jesus
     or God did any direct acting in people's lives in these times
     that we are living in.  After talking with Pete (that was his
     name) for quite a while I found that Pete had a lot of exper-
     iences when working with the Pentecostal type of churches.  One
     thing that particularly interested me was the time that he took
     his boy to a preacher that could heal teeth.  The preacher
     would preach for a while then ask for any one to come up that
     wanted to be healed.  When his boy went up he told the preacher
     that he had a cavity in a tooth that was hurting him.  They then
     examined the tooth and let the people see the whole in the tooth.
     The preacher would then pray over the boy a few words while put-
     ing his hand on the boys head and the other hand on the back
     of the boys neck.  The boy then opened his mouth and a shining
     filling was in the same place that there was once a cavity.  This
     wasn't considered to be such a big thing because the preacher
     was able to do this guite often.  It was not unusual for people
     to line up half way around the block to be healed by this person.
          Pete and I became good friends and I attempled to tell him
     all I knew about Mt. Shasta.  We decided to take a trip together
     up to the Mt. Shasta area and a short time later we were on our
     way to Mt. Shasta for a weekend trip.  On our way towards Widow
     Springs we saw two large timber wolves.  These were the long
     legged thick bodied type.  They were jogging across the road
     just in front of us and kept on going.  At the time Pete and I
     had our familites with us and I had one of my boys along that
     was about 4 years old that would have made a nice tender meal
     for one of those wolves.  We went to Widow Springs and just comp-
     ed out with our bedding laid on the pine cones and etc.  It was
     a good thing that the wolves didn't come back becouse we didn't
     have any guns with us.
             The next day we got up and dicided to see how close we
     could get to the top of the mountain by just driving in our car.
     Up the hill we went just like we knew where we were going.  We
     had hoped we would find a jeep trail that went up the hill
     on the right hand side of Mud Creek rigtht up the side
     of the mountain.  Now remember McCloud, Calif. is about 20 miles
     SE o the town of Mt. Shasta and Widow Springs is 7 miles NE
     of McCloud.  This jeep trail starts about 5 miles NNW of Widow
     Springs in the direction of the mountain.  After driving around
     a while we finally came to a road that was super rough and steep.
     It turned out to be the proper jeep trail.  It was so steep that
     my Rambler station wagon would just slide back down the hill,
     so we decided to get out and walk.  As we went up the hill I
     would pull on one of the others to get them up the steep road.
     After a while we got to a place where we could get a good view
     of the top of the mountain as some of the group decided to stay
     there and just watch the rest of us go up a little ways further.
     While we were there my 10 year old boy said "Did you hear that?"
     I asked him what he was talking about and he said that he
     thought he heard someone talking. I then told him that we
     were getting close to where the men of the mountain were and
     that he might be picking them up.
             Now we started out again leaving the larger part of our
     group at that spot.  There were 4 of us now and one of them was
     Pete.  He was hobbling along on some pretty bad legs but
     we waited on him until we walked about another 3 miles up the
     hill.  When we got up to a point where pine trees could live
     no longer (the tree line) Pete decided that he would sit down
     where he could see us good and let us go as far as we wanted
     to go.  Now there were 3 of us left, myself, my 12 year old
     son and my 11 year old nephew.  After getting about one half mile
     further up the hill we got to a place called The Cedars because
     it consists of a small group of trees that look like cedars.
     These trees are very old and are about 15 feet tall.  They have
     been wind swept for many many years. It was some where
     around this point that my boy nearly junped off the ground
     with excitement.  He then yelled "Did you hear that?"  I
     then told him that I didn't hear anything (although we were
     less than 10 feet apart).  The other young man did't hear
     it either.  I then tried to find out where the scream was
     coming from because it seemed to be very close and just like
     someone screaming.  I then tried to explain as best I could
     that we were in a place where spiritual beings were and that
     they were not to be afraid of them.  If things got too bad then
     we woud turn back.
             In about 15 minutes we got to a beautiful area that had
     a stream coming out of the hill.  There was lush grass growing
     beside the water.  As we sat down we could rest while over-
     looking the McCloud, area.  The water was clear, clean
     and very good to drink.  We then started up the hill and were
     at about the 10,000 ft. level.  My nephew then nearly crawled
     up my back with fear.  He had evidently heard something.
     He said that it was a voice that screamed, "Hey You".  After
     calming him down a little we continued on up the mountain
     and got to the shale area.  This is an area of small rock
     about 3 or 4 inches big made of pumice stones.  The climb
     is pretty steep here and with the small rocks a person takes
     a normal step, then slides back about 3\4 of that distance.
     A person really spins his wheels, but it can be climbed, it
     just takes patience.  We then went over to the side of a large
     canyon that Mud Creek and been going down and carefully looked
     over the side.  This was a real death trap becouse it was
     a very steep drop for about one quarter of a mile to the bottom
     of the canyon.  If you would fall over the side of the canyon
     you would slide very fast to the bottom and more than likely a
     bunch of rocks would landslide on top of you. About this time
     we heard rocks going down the hill in the canyon.  It was getting
     pretty late so we decided to turn back.  Going down the hill is
     a real breeze.  After a while it gets pretty rough because you
     wear out your braking muscles.  The muscles in the back
     of the knees would not be accustomed to all that going
     down hill and after about 3 miles you become very shaky.
     You have to take it easy for a while.  There are a few ice
     fields (somethines called small glaciers) that you have to
     cross to make it up there.  I was a little afraid when
     we started up that we might loose our footing and slide
     down these ice fields.  Their were also places where small
     rivers would be going underneath the ice fields.  On the
     way back the boys got to where they were running and
     sliding down these ice fields.  You could see the water
     going under the ice field and it was hard to determine
     exactly how thick the ice was with the water running under
     it.  The stream going down the montain sometimes is above
     the ground and after going down the hill for a while it
     will come on top of the ground again.  There is a spring
     that starts a Widow Springs and after that time it runs
     along as a narrow stream right through the area of Widow
     Springs.  On some very wet years the spring doesn't just
     start there but continues all the way from the montain
     as a small stream.  Widow Springs is within about 300 yards
     of the Tree Trees Area.  This is the area that is NNW of
     Widow Springs where the three large pine trees were grow-
     ing when Nola Van Valer met the men of the mountain and
     was taught by them back in the 1930's.  There is also a
     company that is selling this area for` homes and has
     subdivided the area.  It is possible to go through this
     area and make it on up the mountain to the jeep trail.
     Once I went to this area when they were running around
     with their guns trying to keep people out and I planted
     a  pine tree beside each one of the pine trees that had been
     cut down.  Here's hoping that they live and replace the
     ones that were cut down.
             Nola says that there was once a Head Forest Ranger
     that worked out of Mt. Shasta who climbed the montain,
     found the door entrance to the temple and established
     exactly it's position and elevation.  This man's first
     name was John but I never found out his last name. This
     was back during about the 1930 or 1940s but I never was
     able to prove this one way or the other.
             Another story about Mt. Shassta that I've not been able
     to prove is about Shastina.  Mt. Shasta has two peaks.
     The smaller of the two peaks is called Shastina.  It is
     an extinct volcano with an inner cone and opening at the
     top.  The story about this started when I was teaching some
     students.  One of the students had found another teacher
     that he believed had the ability to read a person's mind
     and he wanted to conduct some simple tests on both of us
     at the same time to see if we both could really do this.
     We all got together and the other teacher was very humble
     about his gift of being able to tell what a person
     was thinking and seemed to only be able to do it at certain
     times when he was relaxed.  He didn't know wheather or
     not he could do it under tests like we were going to
     conduct or not.  We sat around a table and he asked that we
     think of what he was thinking.  The other men gave his
     opinion of what he was thinking and was wrong.  I then said
     that it was a tea cup sort of a coffee cup actually the
     coffee cup handle that he was thinking of.  Also I picked up
     that a person was thinking of a car that he was going to wash
     and fix up that weekend.  The young student said that it was
     correct that he was thinking of the coffee cup on the table
     before us but he didn't know where I picked up the information
     about the car.  In a couple of days this satudent came up to me
     again all excited to tell me that there was another student
     in the same room that was doing some cleaning of venetian
     blinds while we were doing the experiment.  He had come to
     the other student after the experiment and had confessed that
     while he was cleaning the venetian blinds he was thinking about
     the car that he had recently bought.  He was thinking about
     washing his car and cleaning it up that weekend while we were
     doing the experiment.
             After doing all this the student that was doing this ex-
     periment confided in me the following story;  Back in about
     l955 when I was 10 years old (I'm now 18 years old and it
     is 1967) I got to take a trip with my uncle who is a forest
     ranger up in the Mt. Shasta area.  He was going to let me
     go on a trip with him by horseback into the crater of Shas-
     tina to inspect fire trails.  The crater inside of Shastina is
     so big that a person can ride a horse up the trail over the
     rim and then down the trail to the bottom of the the crater.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!ira.uka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Rick Pavek Needs a Flame (was: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:13:04 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>Assertion:  Not all crop circles can be easily explained by
>the hoaxters.  The crop circles they made don't resemble the majority
>of the crop circles.

Now that's the right way to argue.  You want skeptics to prove that these
crop circles can be made by men too.  Well, *I* can't.  I only have a
plausibility argument.  I know that's invalid and proves nothing.  It goes:
"I don't know how David Copperfield manages to go through the Chinese wall,
but nevertheless I think it's a trick."

>I also find it interesting that interspersed between my posts and
>others' posts there have been some that came forth with data that
>pointed to the conclusion that circles have been created that show
>signs of other-than-human manufacture...  yet these have been oddly
>ignored.  There is obviously a correlation between the amount of
>data needed to prove a point and the willingness of the recipient
>to be believed.

Yes, I think so too.

>Thank you for your opinions.  Once again, you missed the point.

What was the point?  And when did I miss it before?

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Saucer Crash Claims
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:07:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer) writes:
| [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
| >Claims of UFO crashes only come from
| >the US. In Europe, UFO crashes just don't occur. So either
| >the Aliens just love to crash in America, or ...
|
|   Actually, I have read claims of crashes in Sweden, Poland, Brazil, and
| Russia, to name a few, and I'm not even a UFO expert.
|   It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
| to make the rest of us live in it too.
[ ... ]

    Agreed.

    Of particular note here, concerning Brazil, there have been (and I think
    there still are, but I will have to check) a rash of UFO sightings...
    the craft are triangular in size.  I think these types have been spotted
    in the US.

    One point I understand about the Brazilian government is that they are
    not trying to cover it up, but are actively trying to FIGURE it out.
    (I received this information from an associate on the network).

    I was speaking earlier with friend of mine, regarding speculation about
    the MIB (Men In Black) phenomenon and the various governments.  Perhaps
    there _might_ be a UN appointed ruling to allow for these 'agents' to
    do what they do, etc.  It would at least bring the fact that they are
    sighted everywhere back to 'earth' (pun intended).

    A good book to read is "UFO Chronicles of the Soviet Union..." By
    Jacques Vallee.  After years of suppression, many reports and records
    are being circulated about this phenomenon which has been occurring
    over there for quite some time now.  A very well researched and
    composed book (just released this year, BTW).

    And while I'm thinking of it, doesn't MUFON and the other various
    UFO organizations have international contacts?  There must be a way
    to keep a tab on reports, etc.  And I'm curious if one of these
    organizations has a computer database of known sightings, with which
    to make reference to, and possibly case histories... anyone know?

    Forrest
--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29311 alt.alien.visitors:8691 talk.religion.newage:11336
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 19:41:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 22

RA comments
>'high priests'?  When your aliens give you the blueprints for a nuke
>reactor, airplane, or anything more complex than the wheel, come back and
>try that remark again.

Well RA even if we totally ignore the book that says Tesla was dropped off
by ETs as a young child.  It is kind of hard to ignore Tesla claimed to
have daily contact with ETs.  And he did receive the whole AC power system
as a vision as he was walking home from dinner with a friend. He did not
write any of his vision down.  But did build the first AC power plant at
Niagra Falls seven years later.  He also invented radio and remote control,
a saucer engine, etc.  So I would say AC, radio, and his other 700 patents
are a little more complex than the wheel.  He also had a way to end war for
which he was killed.  Now the thing that is really a joke is Tesla is
hanging around wanting to share stuff,  but all our er, scientist, don't
believe they can contact him so he comes through old ladies who don't even
know what rf means.

DS

It sounds to me like you belong to that cult that believes the speed of
light is constant.  Is this post short enough for you?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11337 alt.alien.visitors:8692 sci.skeptic:29312
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:41:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|>      SUBJECT : THE OSTERICH PEOPLE
|>
|>           In an isolated village of the jungle reigion of Zimbabwie, Africa
|>      there is a group of about 100 people who are called the Osterich
|>      people.  They are called this because of their unusual feet. Their
|>      feet are shaped like the feet f an Osterich, having only two large
|>      toes on each foot , but these are pretty bigso they can get good
|>      traction when it comes to trudging though the jungle mud. These toes
|>      are also very nimble, and can be used to pick things up. They are a
|>      dark skinned race of people and other than their feet, they look like
|>      anyone else.
|>           A French team  headed by famed anthropologist Dr. Etienne
|>      Charbonal were investigating tthis group of people and eventually got
|>      there confidence. A group of the Osterich people (if not all of them)
|>      showed up one night, minus their clothes, having silver paint all over
|>      their bodies and invited the good doctor for a midnight hike. After
|>      going into the jungle for hours, the doctor  and team were shown a
|>      large silver dome. Most of the space craft was covered with
|>      vegitation. The native people then began to dance wildly around the
|>      craft singing a song to their ancestors  of the sky.
|>           The dome was like nothing on earth. On the way back, from the
|>      craft, one of the elders of the group told Dr. Charbonal that  200
|>      years ago, the large "spinning sun" had fallen from the sky, bringing
|>      the tribal ancestors to this remote part of the jungle  area.  That
|>      was all anyone rembered.
|>           More will be known when the French team returns to the jungle  to
|>      study the UFO.
|>      Information source: Sept. 26,1989 Sun pg. 7.
|>
|>         I'll leave you with this saying; if it wasn't for the optimist, the
|>      pessimist would never know how happy he isnt.
|>         This is being posted for Don Showen  for  John Winston.  I am not
|>      Don. Don is not me.


You know what the funny thing about this article is?

The "Osterich People" actually exist. I have read about it in "National
Geographic" or some similar magazine. No kidding. If I remember right, about
33% of the people in a village had this genetic anomaly in their feet. I have
seen pictures of the people and the special sandals they wear. Their feet
give them no advantage, but they also give them no significant disadvantage,
so the "mutation" or whatever it is stayed around.

As far as the silver-nude-dance-a-thon...


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!gateway
From: [e-mail] (Jesse Flint)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Date: 20 Aug 1992 22:18:58 -0500
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Lines: 20
Sender: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I just had a thought, and was wondering if anyone was thinking in a
similar vein...

There's a well-documented phenomenon of "marine luminescent wheels", which
are basically huge glowing wheels which are seen at sea, sometimes more
than one wheel at a time (sometimes even spinning in OPPOSITE directions).
It _seems_ to be a natural phenomenon...

Anyway, I was wondering if crop circles might be a result of a on-land
or atmospheric version of marine wheels. Any opinions?

--Tog

--
*                                    *                                     *
It's not Jesse's fault! :)   Tog c/o  [e-mail]
Amateur Librarian, Would-Be Terraformer, Cunning Linguist
..eagerly waiting for "Street Fighter II for GameBoy" :)
                    ("Ah-you-ken", my BUTT!)

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:05:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: v9000.ntu.ac.sg

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>  > Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing
>  > happening
>  > about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time,
>  > I
>  > still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon
>  > the
>  > moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any
>  > further
>  > info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?
>
> I believe you are referring to what is known as Lunar Transient Anomalies
> (LTA).  NASA compiled a paper about this listing the various observations
> that go back a couple of hundred years about people observing strange light
> activity on the moon.  However, it has been theorized that the light
> phenomena seen there may be volcanic activity.  The report from NASA is
> interesting.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
> UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
> INTERNET: [e-mail]




    Well if NASA said that, then NASA certainly has a good sense of humor

    Volcanic activity on moon? Hah! How about this for a change.


    An oasis in the middle of a huge crater where there are beautiful

    women welcoming the arrival of our astronauts.




                                                  Tickle Me Pink!!!!!!!!
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From: [e-mail] (Bear Giles)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:20:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
|In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
||>      SUBJECT : THE OSTERICH PEOPLE
||>
||>           In an isolated village of the jungle reigion of Zimbabwie, Africa
||>      there is a group of about 100 people who are called the Osterich
||>      people.  They are called this because of their unusual feet.

|You know what the funny thing about this article is?
|
|The "Osterich People" actually exist. I have read about it in "National
|Geographic" or some similar magazine. No kidding. If I remember right, about
|33% of the people in a village had this genetic anomaly in their feet. I have
|seen pictures of the people and the special sandals they wear. Their feet
|give them no advantage, but they also give them no significant disadvantage,
|so the "mutation" or whatever it is stayed around.

Not only that, I saw pictures of them in the _Weekly World News_.  That
proves they're real!  The WWN doesn't print _anything_ unless it has
documented proof.

||>           A French team  headed by famed anthropologist Dr. Etienne
||>      Charbonal were investigating tthis group of people and eventually got
||>      there confidence.
         ^^^^^
||>      After
||>      going into the jungle for hours, the doctor  and team were shown a
||>      large silver dome. Most of the space craft was covered with
||>      vegitation. The native people then began to dance wildly around the

That's obviously a fake.  The WWN article didn't mention it.

||>           More will be known when the French team returns to the jungle  to
||>      study the UFO.
||>      Information source: Sept. 26,1989 Sun pg. 7.

Well, It's been close to three years since that article was published.  What
happened?


Bear Giles
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!centerline!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:32:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear RA: Did you know that your name RA is the name of a god?

Yes, I know about Ra, the mythological Egyptian god of the Sun.  Not where
I got it though - it's a short form of my nickname.

>In answer to your question it may seem silly but there are a lot of
>people from Venus living here just ask anybody.

Which part of 'anybody' would this be?  I'm not sure if you're joking or not.
I know _you_ believe this - but yours is a far from common belief.  BTW,
what reason do you have to believe this guy?

>The skull is not one million years old but it's pretty old.

Source?

    RA
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29318 alt.alien.visitors:8699 talk.religion.newage:11346
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!cheops!pclink
From: [e-mail] (Rick)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Telecom Australia, TNE Computer Support Services
References: <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:04:43 GMT
Lines: 33

[I'm late to this thread, so don't worry if I'm at a tangent...]

[e-mail] writes:

>Well RA even if we totally ignore the book that says Tesla was dropped off
>by ETs as a young child.  It is kind of hard to ignore Tesla claimed to
>have daily contact with ETs.  And he did receive the whole AC power system
>as a vision as he was walking home from dinner with a friend. He did not
>write any of his vision down.  But did build the first AC power plant at
>Niagra Falls seven years later.  He also invented radio and remote control,
>a saucer engine, etc.  So I would say AC, radio, and his other 700 patents
>are a little more complex than the wheel.  He also had a way to end war for
>which he was killed.  Now the thing that is really a joke is Tesla is
>hanging around wanting to share stuff,  but all our er, scientist, don't
>believe they can contact him so he comes through old ladies who don't even
>know what rf means.

You know what really grinds my wheel?  It's when people need to invent
explanations to deal with the human organism working at its best.  What's
wrong with Tesla being a normal (if eccentric) human?  Why are aliens
neccessary for the construction of the pyramids, the Peru plains drawings,
Easter Island statues, Greek knowledge of the atom, inventive hoaxes (eg
crop circles), etc, etc?  Granted, a lot of things unknown/poorly understood,
but isn't it more plausible that somebody from *this* planet was responsible?

>DS

>It sounds to me like you belong to that cult that believes the speed of
>light is constant.  Is this post short enough for you?

I'm the member of a cult?  Wow!  What's this cult called?

Rick.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29323 alt.alien.visitors:8700 talk.religion.newage:11347
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 05:50:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>RA comments
>>'high priests'?  When your aliens give you the blueprints for a nuke
>>reactor, airplane, or anything more complex than the wheel, come back and
>>try that remark again.
>
>Well RA even if we totally ignore the book that says Tesla was dropped off
>by ETs as a young child.  It is kind of hard to ignore Tesla claimed to
>have daily contact with ETs.  And he did receive the whole AC power system
>as a vision as he was walking home from dinner with a friend. He did not
>write any of his vision down.  But did build the first AC power plant at
>Niagra Falls seven years later.  He also invented radio and remote control,
>a saucer engine, etc.  So I would say AC, radio, and his other 700 patents
>are a little more complex than the wheel.  He also had a way to end war for
>which he was killed.  Now the thing that is really a joke is Tesla is
>hanging around wanting to share stuff,  but all our er, scientist, don't
>believe they can contact him so he comes through old ladies who don't even
>know what rf means.
>
>DS
>
>It sounds to me like you belong to that cult that believes the speed of
>light is constant.  Is this post short enough for you?

Gosh, don, what a great post. You left out the part where the gov. siezed
all his notes minutes after his death and sealed them from scholars as
well as the pubic.

Any of you SOLIC types ever read about antigravity research in the press
since, oh, about 1955 or so? I didn't think so. Any of ya'll ever heard
of PINE GAP? (NSA Crays's turn on;-). I doubt it.

Jeff-

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: DNA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:41:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:
>
>
>
>     This is a question directed to the dude who mutates his DNA
>while sitting in a hot tube with space chicks.  Have you ever
>wondered if this mutation is beneficial or not?

Well, if the chicks are nekkid, and open to suggestion, it would have
a definite reproductive advadtage. Heck, if they were just open to suggestion.

And to those wonem who read these things and get offended, -anything- which
produces children which survive has what many see as an important advantage.
So far, I have shown no sign of this advantage <sigh>, but I am working on it.
Sometimes I think that intelligence is not an anvantage, or that I mustn not
be very intelligent. Then in a flash of insight, I realize that feeling is the
key here, and that intelligence is a disadvantage. Thinking about sex as no
reproductive advantage whatsoever.



Rich    (2 liters almost killed)

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newsroom.utas.edu.au!cam!esk!rhoge1
From: [e-mail] (Robert James Hoge)
Subject: Re: Alien visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 07:19:32 GMT
Lines: 12

Terve!

Mina olen Suomesta.  Taalla kaikki ihmiset on paska avoija.

Heido.


--
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))#  I don't care what country you're from... You're still human.  #((
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 08:57:47 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 13

Gary, you might find school life a bit easier if you managed to go to the right
classes....


(FIGHT BACK AGAINST EVIL .SIG LIMITATIONS N...

--
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Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:01:21 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 28

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Posted: 19 Aug 92 13:33:19 GMT
>
> Org.  : The Portal System (TM)
>
> Dear Kibo K. or whoever you are: I read the information about Kibo and it
> doesn't make much sense to me. Sometimes I think things are getting away from
> me. Please be advised that today (wednesday 1100) is the fourth or
> fifth running of the weekly Astral OOBE Sweepstakes. It's got to where
> you can't identify anyone without a scorecard. Happy travels to you.
> John Winston.


I don't think anything makes much sense to you.  It was nice of you to take my
suggestion and stop posting each message in little chunks, but did you have to
mail me back five times???

(EVIL .SIG MUTILATION FOLLOWS)

--
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it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MEN IN BLACK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:07:42 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 28

> Forrie Aldrich writes:
> |          Our U.S. government is now cooperating with the Sirians; and the
> |      question was asked,  what is the power that the entire government has
> |      to go along with them? They have weapon sources, (I must
> |      circumspect...) that are believed by the powers on this planet, to be
> |      absolutely dominating. In other words, the government believes they
> |      are looking down the barrel  of a very big gun. The Sirians are in the
> |      second dimension soon to go into the third.  We are in the third, soon
> |      to go into the fourth. The sirians are trying to prevent us from going
> |      into the fourth dimension.
> [ ... ]


Wow, those are pretty stupid aliens if they can't get out of the second
dimension.  Amazing, secret FLAT aliens!  Two-dimensional!  Let's hope they get
some height to go along with their width and length soon, they must get annoyed
when everyone steps on them all the time.

Jeremy "My SIG can't get out of the second dimension either, so it got cut off"


--
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Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Last chance to mail your questions to a real alien!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:17:00 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 21

OK, Guys, I would imagine most folk on alt.alien.visitors would just LOVE to be
able to interact with a real alien.

Well, here's your chance.  I am definitely 100% alien, no crossbreeding, no
messy scars.  I will answer any question you wish to email me.  Think hard--
this chance may not happen again for at least a couple of millenia!

Even if you don't believe I am an alien (of course you cannot PROVE it so
therefore I must be) what questions WOULD you ask an alien?  Ask me, and I'll
answer them.

No time-wasters please.

MYSTERIOUS MUTILATED .SIG FOLLOWS.
--
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Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mips!mips!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:24:15 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 36

>
> >And to spoil their fun further, analysis of the moon crater Tycho's strata
> >(lines of ejected lunar material) shows its estimated impact date to
> coincide
> >with the monk's sighting.  This was described in _Cosmos_, which BTW also
> >contains a pretty good argument about the lack of good proof of actual alien
> >visitations.  You'd think just ONE of these zillions of "crashed spaceships"
> >might have produced one, ONE, just ONE inexplicable artifact or fragment.
> So
> >far, nada.
> Has  A COVERUP BY GOV'T EVER OCCURED TO YOU?????????
>
> I don't mean to be rude, but the gov't has been known to clear up all signs
> of anything they don't want known. So lack of evidence is not a totally sound
> argume
> nt because the possibility of cover-up is still there.


Oh of course.  When there is a lack of evidence there must be a cover-up.  I
guess the reason that nobody believes in fairies and elves and gnomes anymore
is because governments covered them up so well.

Governments come and go.  It's called democracy.  Now how could all these
governments, who disagree violently with one another, all miraculously be in
100% agreement ALL THE TIME and cover everything up with 100% efficiency?  I
tell you, if it weren't for these aliens there would be no harmony in this
world.

INEXPLICABLE MUTILATED .SIG FOLLOWS:
--
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Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8708 alt.paranormal:5656 sci.skeptic:29333
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!sun!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!starflight!jdr
From: [e-mail] (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Korresponding with Klass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:25:32 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 116
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

The following is a letter I received from Philip Klass, and my reply to it:
---

Philip J. Klass      404 "N" St. Southwest       Washington, DC 20024

                                                      August 10, 1992

Mr. Jon Roland
Starflight Corp.
1755 E. Bayshore Rd. #9A
Redwood City, Calif. 94063-4142

Dear Jon Roland:

    A friend was kind enough to send me your excellent summary of
Budd Hopkins account of the "Linda UFO Abduction Case" at the
recent MUFON conference in Albuquerque as it appeared on an
Electronic Bulletin Board

    Two corrrections:

(1)    It was Robert Redford--the handsome, charming movie star--who
took the photos of Linda and Budd Hopkins. We are often mistaken
for one another so don't feel badly.

(2)    The letter from "Rich" was received by Hopkins in Feb. 1991,
not "a few weeks later." Hopkins misspoke when he gave the date
as "Feb. 1990"--but he corrected himself when he said "about 15
months after" Linda's Nov. 29-30 incident.

    Reference Hopkins' expressed hope that the "well-known
political figure" (the man that Hopkins was told was a 3rd witness)
will go public and confirm the incident. I am so confident that
this individual was not involved (and was home asleep at the time)
that I propose the following wager:

    I'll agree to pay you $1,000 if/when this "well-known
political figure" publicly confirms the truth of Linda's story if
you will agree to pay me $100/year for every year that passes until
he does so--with a limit of $500 maximum on the amount of your
payments. In other words, if he goes public and confirms Linda's
story within two years, you're $800 ahead; within 10 or more years,
you're $500 ahead. If NEVER, then you're out $500. If this proposed
wager is appealing, I'll draw up a one page contract for our mutual
execution.

    Regardless, my compliments on your excellent summary of Hop-
kins' MUFON talk.

    The next (September) issue of my Skeptics UFO Newsletter (SUN
#17) will carry a lengthy report on the "Linda Case" including a
number of details that Hopkins intentionally omitted. If you are
interested, I'll send you a complimentary copy.

                                             /s/ (Phil Klass)
---

                           1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A
                        Redwood City, CA 94063-4142
                                415/361-8141
                        Email: [e-mail]
                                  92/08/15

Philip J Klass
404 N St SW
Washington, DC 20024

Dear Phil:

Thank you for your letter and its corrections. I am taking the liberty
of posting your letter and this reply to the Net, as I am sure others
would like to share them.

However, as I recall from Budd Hopkins' talk, the third witness was
referred to only as an "important public official" -- not as a
"well-known political figure". Since you seem to know who he is, this
is further clarification that makes it easier to identify him and the
agency for whom the other two witnesses worked.

And since you do seem to know who he is, I will decline your wager. You
may know him well enough to know that he won't come forward, although
perhaps it is because he was in bed at his mistress' apartment in that
building rather than at home. But thanks for confirming that he exists,
and thus lending credence to the events he may have either witnessed or
just missed witnessing.

But I am concerned about how you are recovering from the abduction
experience you reported to me at the MUFON Symposium. You weren't
supposed to remember the alien you had sex with as being one of the
ugly ones. If you recalled anything, you were supposed to remember her
as a voluptuous redhead. Ah well, I suppose with all the liquor the
memory implant didn't take. I tried to get one of the beautiful aliens
to have sex with you -- really I did. But when I mentioned it to them,
well .... Their thoughts just don't translate.

I would be happy to receive a complimentary copy of the Skeptics UFO
Newsletter #17. I hope, however, if you cite any facts that Hopkins
omitted, you will also explain how you come to know those facts.
Skepticism cuts both ways.


                                                         Jon Roland
---

A question arises concerning Klass' letter: What was his real purpose
in writing it? He's clearly smart enough to know that I'm not stupid
enough to take him up on a "wager" like this, so what purpose does the
letter really serve? I have several ideas, but I would like to hear
from the rest of you.

---

[e-mail], [e-mail]
Jon Roland
Starflight Corporation, 1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A,
Redwood City, CA 94063-4142, 415/361-8141
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Korresponding with Klass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Between a rock and a type specimen sheet, Boston.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:58:21 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>The following is a letter I received from Philip Klass, and my reply to it:

Just out of curiosity, is Philip Klass the paranormal investigator the same
Philip Klass who (as William Tenn) wrote some of the best science
fiction of the fifties and sixties?  ("Child's Play", for instance.  I
remember reading it around age eleven...)

The Skeptical Enquirer lists Klass as "Science writer and engineer" on
their roster.
                            -- K.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!alf.uib.no!hsr.no!gribb.hsr.no!trondk_l
From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:50:35 GMT
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines
>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 21:05:34 PDT

>     Subject: Alien Races.
>             While reading the book called "UFO, From Venus I Came by
>     Omnec Once some statements were made about different
>     civilizations, races here on Earth and where these races
>     came from.
>             Here's a quote from her book, "I must advice you not
>     all UFOs that are seen  by people on earth are from our
>     Brotherhood of Planets, or even from our solar system.  Some
>     are actually astral lights and interdimensional entities,
>     and some are unknown to us.  Some come from great distances.
>     The whole picture is very complex, but there have been a
>     great number of landings and contacts by our people."
>             A black race evolved in the Jupiter system.  These are
>     the tall, royal looking people, with broad faces and square
>     jaws.  Their hair is deep glistening black and their eyes
>     are purple to violet.  The Jupiterians are also known for
>     their beautiful voices and open sharing nature of being.
>     Descendants are in Africa and other parts of the world.
>     (I've also found that a race of black people know a lot
>     about Sirius the dog star and speak of a double star that
>     rotates in a cycle of about 50 years.)
>             You might wonder how Omnec's life was here on Earth
>     after she came from Venus to live here. She didn't tell
>     anyone that she was from Venus until she grew up.  In the
>     Earth families  that raised her, her stepfathers were dire
>     punishment she had to learn to endure.  One raped her when
>     she was fourteen and the second at sixteen, while holding a
>     loaded gun to her head.  She didn't feel too bold or heroic
>     in trying to resist because he had already shot her in the
>     arm and she didn't feel it was time to die.
>             Omnec was also brought up in a very strict atmosphere
>     of a church where one of the young men rose to prominence,
>     Elvis Presley.
>             I'll leave you with this saying;  You can go through
>     more trials and tribulations on this Earth in one lifetime
>     than you can on a utopian type planet in 1,000 years.
>
>        That's all for now, John F. Winston.

As reading your article I where wondering: How old are this book "UFO's from
VENUS". I've also been reading books about civilizations on Venus, but these
books are old. Much of this information has been uncovered as rubbish (e.g.
Adamski). Why haven't cameras on space ships sent up to Venus been able to
uncover civilizations if they exists?

     Your friend in Norway, Trond K. Lindanger
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!unipalm!uknet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!polaris!polaris!sara.cc.utu.fi!shanwang
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: *_-_*_Tour_A|ps_*_-_*
Summary: *_-_*_Tour_Alps_*_-_*
Keywords: every say is a new day ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:37:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News admin)
Followup-To: *_-_*_Tour-Alps_*_-_*
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Lines: 48

Path: sara.cc.utu.fi!shanwang
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: *_-_-_*_The_Way_Alps_......_*_-_-_*
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:29:35 EET-DST
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Lines: 36

&&>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
&&>>
&&>>    Hey, Alex
&&>>
&&>>    Sorry I am busy this moment and can't write you more .
&&>>    Yesterday while I am sitting at the table. A fellow run into my
&&>>    and bullshit a lot thing about life ...
&&>>
&&>>    Today I also receive a postcard from Switzland. Those fellows are
&&>>    on the way to Alps.
&&>>
&&>>    On the letter, they complain a lot about the hard life, even though
&&>>    it's so romantic, or exciting ...
&&>>
&&>>    I wrote back a letter and tell them I got the feeling about life. I try
&&>>    to calm them down but I even cannot persuade myself to get rid of
&&>>    nervous ...
&&>>
&&>>    On the bottom of my letter, I said that at least they must be happy
&&>>    because they are on the way to Alps ...
&&>>
&&>>    And today I receive a telegraph from Switzland. They tell me they do
&&>>    are on the way ...
&&>>
&&>>    I reply a E-mail, and just write :
&&>>    " ... Long Live Understanding ... "
&&>>
&&>>    This is a miserable student in the Lab. on a dummy day ;(
&&>>    Ps. It is said that tomorrow will be better ... So it's hopeful ;)
&&>>
&&>>    Heyheyheyheyheyhey, I will write to you later ...
&&>>
&&>>    Have fun !!!
&&>>
&&>>    Yours
&&>>
&&>>    Wing, 2 Dan
&&>>
&&>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!ParaNet.Information.Service
From: [e-mail] (ParaNet Information Service)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Richard T. Miller/Phoenix Project
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:24:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 104


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from ParaNet Information Service
 * Originally dated 08-20-92 13:12

Below is a response that came through Jack Mathias, allegedly written by
Richard T. Miller, explaining his relationship to George Green's Phoenix
Liberator and the Phoenix Project.  Please note that this Richard Miller is the
Richard Miller who was associated with George Green, and *may* still be,
however according to his admission, he is no longer affilated with Green.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Original: TO ... Michael Corbin of 1:104/422
* ReDirected Using ReDirect Version 1.00 (C)1989 David Nugent

From  scicom!ncar!compuserve.com!72730.3636
From: [e-mail] (Jack L Mathias)
To:   ">INTERNET:[e-mail]"
<[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:51:01 EDT

August 12, 1992

To:  Mr. Michael Corbin
    ParaNet Information Service

From:  Advent Publishing Company and
      Richard T. Miller

A message from you, made public on many BBS's and pertaining mainly
to the Phoenix Project, was brought to my attention.  In that
message you mention my name, the name of my company, and try to
create an impression that I am involved in some type of activity
and have relationships with others that is questionable.

You state in your message: "based on striking and suggestive
circumstances," that there is a possible connection between myself,
Advent Publishing Company, and another publisher - known as America
West and one of their publications "The Phoenix Liberator."  You
fail to clearly label your statements, or your presumptions, as
"pure" speculation.  I find your technique of using such
speculation, and the end-result of that usage - guilt by
implication - very offensive.

The statement I refer to is - whether I am, or my company is,
another incarnation of America West and their people. The answer is
an emphatic - no.

Let me set the record straight.  I am a semi-retired electronic and
radio and television broadcast engineer.  I am also the sole owner
of Advent Publishing Company.  This Company is registered as a sole
proprietorship, in Carson County, State of Nevada. I operate this
business to occupy my spare time and to supplement my retirement
income.  Neither myself, or my Company has any connection with
America West Publishing, their publication the "Phoenix Liberator,"
or any of their numerous publications.  I do not know them, and I
have never had any dealings with them.

It should be perfectly clear and very obvious from what I've
stated, that I find the activities of America West and the content
of the "Phoenix Liberator" thoroughly disgusting.  And that, Mr.
Corbin, is the overwhelming reason for my use of a strong
disclaimer, disavowing any relationship or affiliation with the
above named organization, its publications, and their known
principals.

You also raise the question as to whether I am the same Richard
Miller who, many years ago, communicated with an individual known
as Hatonn and started an organization known as the Solar Cross.

My answer may startle you.  Yes I am, and yes I did.  However, I
have not been active in such activities for many years. I am
answering this question only because of your attempt to make an
onerous association between myself and America West, and the
"Phoenix Liberator."  An association that doesn't exist.

I can state, however, without reservation, that the "Phoenix
Liberator" is fraudulently using the name Hatonn and claiming he is
the source of their information.  They have used the name of a
respected Being as a "drawing card" to entice the innocent and lend
a degree of credibility to the rubbish they publish.

I am not the only one who might feel this way.  In closing let me
quote a paragraph in a message sent to Jack Mathias by Don Allen,
regarding America West and the "Phoenix Liberator," on Fido_UFO:

"Jack - Received your message and here is something to mull over.
Just remember that people who claim to channel "Higher Entities"
should be judged not only on their words, but also by their actions
and ethics.  I have read a considerable amount of "Hatonn's"
material and it does not leave me feeling edified, uplifted or
enlightened.  It is very condemnatory.  It is, I submit, not of the
Light.  These aren't the words of a "Christed being"...they are
Cooperish rantings from quick buck con artists and most likely the
"entity" that Dharma" is "channelling" (If "Hatonn" exists at all)
is most definitely some lower/dark astral being.  By their fruits
ye shall know them."

RTM

--
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From: [e-mail] (ParaNet Information Service)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Phoenix Response - Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:25:09 GMT
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 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from ParaNet Information Service
 * Originally dated 08-20-92 13:23

<..Continued from previous message>

No.  ParaNet has long questioned both of those sacred cows.  To this
point we have seen no acceptable proof for the existence of any
underground alien base near Dulce, nor have we seen adequate proof for
the existence of "Operation Majestic Twelve".  We have publicly stated
as much on many occasions.

PP> According to our sources within the intelligence community, the
PP> Dulce Scam, perpetrated by the disinformation specialists of MAJI,
PP> better known to you as Majestic Twelve with help from the CIA and
PP> NSA, is considered one of their most brilliant success stories.

But, of course, these "sources" cannot be named, and all we have to go
on is your word that they even exist.  And, unfortunately, you are
making a concerted effort to keep anyone from knowing who *you* are,
either.  Anonymous stories relayed by anonymous story tellers.  Sorry,
but that's not "evidence".

PP> We sent in experienced investigators, not amateurs, to check out
PP> the alleged Dulce Base.  Those people knew what to look for, how to
PP> look for it, how to get answers, and are not easily mislead.

We have no evidence for this except your say-so.

PP> If you do not agree with our findings, get off your posterior, go
PP> to Dulce, and check it out for yourself.

We have.

PP> In fact, we invite
PP> anybody to do the same thing.  We're sure you'll find exactly what
PP> we did ...

We didn't.

PP> You imply that you're good at asking questions -- how are you at
PP> answering them?  We have a few questions ... Would you mind sharing
PP> with all of us, everyone on the BBS's and the public, what hard
PP> evidence you have that, without question, supports the presence and
PP> validity of the Dulce Base.

Would you mind sharing what hard evidence you have that we ever said
anything of the kind?  We have never said anything in support of the
presence of a secret alien base at Dulce.  In point of fact, we
consider it extremely unlikely that any such base exists--at Dulce or
anywhere else.  That's one of the reasons we have so much trouble with
your "K-2" report, which purports to document the existence of just
such a base in California.

PP> Unless you have irrefutable
PP> evidence to present, made available for public scrutiny and
PP> evaluation, which invalidates the findings of the Phoenix Project
PP> regarding Dulce, K-2, or the Ultimate Secret, or our future
PP> reports, back off.  Either put-up or shut-up.  In other words, get
PP> off our back.

All right, challenge accepted.  Let's start with this statement from
your "Ultimate Secret" report:

PP> According to eye-witness testimony, the CIA
PP> agent in charge of this covert operation, wearing the
PP> uniform of an AF Colonel, was William C. Cooper. ...
PP> This witness testifies that this is the
PP> same William C. Cooper, who has been prominent since 1988
PP> in the civilian UFO movement.

Is this "William C. Cooper" supposed to be the famous Bill Cooper we
have all come to know so well?  Apparently so.  Unfortunately, in his
own published documents Bill Cooper gives his full name as "Milton
William Cooper", not "William C. Cooper".  Either Cooper doesn't know
his own name, or the Phoenix Project's "eye witness" doesn't know what
he's talking about.

And while we're on the subject of Bill Cooper, it is instructive to
compare some of the text of the Phoenix Project's "Ultimate Secret"
document with some of Bill Cooper's material on the same subject.
Cooper writes in his "Operation Majority--Final Release":

BC> [Project Grudge] was financed by CIA confidential
BC> funds (nonappropriated)
BC> and money from the illicit drug trade ...
BC> The purpose of Project Grudge
BC> was to collect all scientific, technological, medical and
BC> intelligence information from UFO/IAC sightings and
BC> contacts with alien life forms.  This orderly file of
BC> collected information has been used to advance the United
BC> States Space Program.

Now look at the corresponding paragraph of the Phoenix Project's
"Ultimate Secret" report:

PP> Project Aquarius was funded by CIA confidential
PP> funds (non-appropriated) ...
PP> The purpose of Project Aquarius
PP> was to collect all scientific, technological, medical and
PP> intelligence information from UFO/IAC sightings and
PP> contacts with alien lifeforms. This orderly file of
PP> collected information has been used to advance the United
PP> States' Space Program and provided the data needed to
PP> develop present stealth technology.

You don't have to be an intelligence agent to see that these two
passages are virtually identical in both content and phrasing.  Since
Cooper's statement is dated 10 January 1989, more than half a year
before the "Ultimate Secret" report's "origination" date of 4 August
1989, we seem to be left with three possibilities:  (1) Cooper was
somehow privy to the Phoenix Project's investigative results even
before they were first put to paper; or, (2) the Phoenix Project
plagiarized Cooper's writings; or (3) the Phoenix Project's own
investigations drew on the same tainted and discredited sources as
Cooper apparently did in compiling his own materials.  Whichever one
you pick, it's not a pretty picture.

But it gets worse:

PP> The basic information revealing the existence of
PP> Operation Majestic-12, the crashed UFOs, alien beings,
PP> and their secret bases within the United States, was
PP> obtained through the Freedom of Information Act from the
PP> files of the CIA, NSA, FBI, State Department, the U.S.
PP> Air Force.

This is utter nonsense, as any perusal of published FOIA documents on
UFOs would quickly reveal.  FOIA requests have forced the government to
disgorge many hundreds of pages of UFO documents over the years, but
they provide little if any support for the existence of Operation
Majestic Twelve, crashed saucers, alien beings, or secret bases.  If
the Phoenix Project is relying on already published documents as their
source for this claim (e.g., "The UFO Cover-UP" by Lawrence Fawcett and
Barry Greenwood, or "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good), then clearly
they have not examined them very carefully.  On the other hand, if the
project really does have such explosive FOIA documents in its
possession, let's see them; their publication would do more to
establish the project's credibility than anything else it could
possibly do short of producing a live alien.

PP> PROJECT GRUDGE:  This project was originally
PP> established in 1953, by order of President Eisenhower and
PP> is under the control of the CIA, NSA, and MAJI.  Project
PP> Grudge went underground and another project, Project
PP> Sign, was established as a cover operation.   In 1960, the
PP> Project's name was changed from Project SIGN to Project
PP> Bluebook.

This is demonstrably and totally wrong.  Project Sign was established
first, in 1947, and it was under the control of the Air Force, not the
CIA.  The name was changed to Project Grudge in 1949, and to Blue Book
in 1952-- not 1960.  (For details, see "The Report on Unidentified
Flying Objects" by Edward J. Ruppelt, who headed the project from 1951
to 1953.)  The exact dates slide around a little bit depending on
whether you're talking about when the decision was made, when the order
was signed, or when the order became effective; but the differences are
on the order of months, not decades!  How could the Phoenix Project's
experienced intelligence agents make so many ludicrous errors in a
single paragraph?

<Concluded in next message..>

--
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From: [e-mail] (ParaNet Information Service)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Our Response to Phoenix Project
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:25:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from ParaNet Information Service
 * Originally dated 08-20-92 13:23

On 6 August 1992, ParaNet Information Service posted a preliminary
statement on our investigation into an organization known as the
Phoenix Project, which had recently released "investigative reports"
entitled "The Dulce Report", "The K-2 Report", and "The Ultimate
Secret".  In our statement we pointed out some apparent problems with
all three Phoenix Project reports, as well as some suspicious aspects
of the Project's organization itself.  In our conclusion, we issued a
warning not to take the Phoenix Project reports at face value, pending
further investigation.

On 10 August 1992, Jack Mathias of the Phoenix Project responded in a
long, rambling message posted to a number of bulletin boards and news
groups.  Unfortunately, rather than dealing with the substantive issues
raised in our previous postings regarding the project and its
publications, Mr. Mathias's statement consisted mostly of ad-hominem
attacks impugning the motives, integrity, and competence of ParaNet's
officers and investigators.  Here is some typical language excerpted
from the Phoenix Project statement:

  " ... you blew it ..."
  " ... a snap judgement without examining the evidence ..."
  " ... your spontaneous and instant negative reaction ..."
  " ... your attitude problem ..."
  " ... you abused your position of trust and responsibility ..."
  " ... inexcusable ... a new record for prejudice ..."
  " ... you've just won the Golden Fleece Award ..."
  " ... outstanding ineptness ..."
  " ... amateur sleuthing ..."
  " ... self-centered ..."
  " ... lacking any real expertise ..."
  " ... seated upon your starry throne ..."
  " ... elected yourself to be the final arbiter of the truth ..."
  " ... Judge, Jury, and Executioner ..."
  " ... Kangaroo Court Proceeding of your own fashioning ..."
  " ... arm-chair expertise ..."
  " ... laughable ..."

Following paragraph after paragraph of this kind of personal invective,
Mr. Mathias then suggests that:

PP> In our opinion, the public deserves the truth regarding the real
PP> story of UFO's, government involvement and the Alien threat.  That
PP> should be our objective. ...  Perhaps you'll agree that, that
PP> objective is more productive than entertaining the public via the
PP> BBS links with a side-show of petty squabbles and bickering
PP> between individuals and organizations.

This is a noble sentiment, and one which we at ParaNet wholeheartedly
agree with.  Hopefully in the future the Phoenix Project's
representatives will take some of their own advice and try to keep the
rhetoric down to a more civilized level.

Having said that, let's look at the actual issues raised by this latest
salvo from the Phoenix Project, and see how they stack up.

PP> Let us review the facts.  You reacted by issuing a public warning
PP> to the members of ParaNet, which was also widely distributed via
PP> other BBS's nation-wide. That warning contained language which
PP> implied the information, and the source, were highly suspect.
PP> Thus, single-handedly, you created a strong impression throughout
PP> the UFO community, that our information was false.  Many sincere
PP> people, trusting your qualifications, accepted your warning.

True.

PP> You took it upon yourself to make a snap judgement
PP> without examining the evidence.

False.  We did not arrive at our conclusion single-handedly or
instantaneously.  Our analysis and the resulting warning were the
products of considerable discussion among ParaNet's researchers and
subscribers.  They were also labeled as tentative, pending further
investigation.

PP> In your message, you mention that you wrote to the Phoenix Project,
PP> after the fact and your preliminary judgement, requesting further
PP> information.  You made the same comment in other BBS messages.  You
PP> state that we did not respond to your request.  You also imply, by
PP> insinuation, that this is a mark against us and a further
PP> indication that we are suspect.  ... To date we have
PP> not received your letter of inquiry.  Apparently, of all the mail
PP> we receive, your letter is the only one that has gone astray.  We
PP> can only conclude that is was either lost in the mail or you didn't
PP> mail it.  Did it ever occur to you to mail us a second request,
PP> when you did not receive a response to your first inquiry?

The letter was followed up with electronic mail to the Project's
spokesman, Jack Mathias.  The request for information was repeated
through that channel.  The request was refused.

PP> But, this was not the end of your attitude problem regarding the
PP> Phoenix Project.  You did the same thing, again, issuing warnings,
PP> etc., with our release of the K-2 and the Ultimate Secret Reports.
PP> And, again, you had not seen or examined the supporting documents
PP> at the time you issued those warnings to ParaNet and the public.

We have already stated our reasons for suspecting the "K-2" and
"Ultimate Secret" reports.  As with the "Dulce" report, our suspicions
went to the core of the entire concept and execution of both reports;
consequently, it seemed unlikely that the "supporting documents" would
make much difference.  Our judgement in this matter was borne out when
we received the "supporting documents" from another source.  We were
not impressed.

PP> Would we be out of line in concluding that your mind was
PP> already made-up?

Yes, that would be out of line, since our minds were not and in fact
are not yet entirely made up.  Our warnings were tentative, and in our
view totally justified.  So far we have not been provided with any
evidence to the contrary.  If such evidence is provided, we will not
only change our minds but say so publicly.

PP> Fortunately, for the UFO Movement, other
PP> investigators and researchers don't share your opinion.

That's not the feedback we've been getting.

PP> You state in your initial message that "much of the information in
PP> the Dulce Report about Dulce and the Archuleta Mesa contradicts
PP> information already provided to ParaNet by other capable
PP> investigators."  What information?  Who provided it?  How did you
PP> determine its validity?

Our information consists of the testimony of ParaNet investigators and
others who have been in Dulce and on the Mesa.  Their experiences were
very different from what you describe, and it is difficult to reconcile
your claims with the findings of our own people.

PP> We formally request access to that
PP> information.  We'd like to examine it ourselves.  Can we obtain
PP> copies of "that" information?

Our investigation continues, and the information will be made public
when it is complete  At that time we will be glad to provide you with a
complimentary copy of our report.

PP> Now, let us get to the main thrust of your message - your
PP> investigation to reveal the personnel of the Phoenix Project.
PP>
PP> [several paragraphs of meaningless abuse deleted]
>
PP> What, if anything, is the Phoenix Project guilty of?  Is it the
PP> fact that we dared to question and investigate two of the sacred
PP> cows of UFO-dom namely the ones you mentioned, i.e., "underground
PP> alien bases, and the cluster of government projects referred to
PP> collectively as Operation Majestic Twelve?"

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (ParaNet Information Service)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Phoenix Response - Conclusion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:25:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from ParaNet Information Service
 * Originally dated 08-20-92 13:24

<<..Continued from previous message>>

In fact, this whole business was such an embarrassing mess that the
Phoenix Project issued a "correction" document to try to straighten it
out.  But, ironically, the correction is also wrong--just less
obviously so.

We could go on, but I think you get the point.  The "Ultimate Secret"
report is, at best, a rehash of other people's garbage.  At worst, it
is a deliberate effort to confuse and disinform.

PP> We actively encourage other serious investigators to use the
PP> information we have provided as a basis for conducting their own
PP> inquiry and to carry-on our effort.  Can you, Mr. Corbin, or
PP> ParaNet, or Mufon, make the same claim.  Or, is it true that the
PP> results of critical investigations are held sacred by the elite
PP> leadership of these organizations, and are not shared with the
PP> member's of their organizations or the public?

We can't speak for other organizations, but in the case of ParaNet we
have always made our results public as soon as our investigations are
complete.

PP> In your message, you insinuate that because of our past military
PP> and intelligence backgrounds, our area of expertise so-to-speak,
PP> that the motives of the Phoenix Project are suspect.  You further
PP> insinuate that we are possibly government operatives attempting to
PP> send serious researchers off on a variety of wild goose chases.

Given the prior history of government disinformation in ufology, most
of it purveyed by active or former intelligence agents and their
victims, anyone who (1) purports to have a military intelligence
background, (2) refuses to divulge their identity, and (3) propagates
known disinformation as reliable intelligence (whether deliberately or
not) should expect his motives to be considered suspect until proven
otherwise.  It is extremely naive of you to think it would happen any
other way.

PP> If anyone needed assurance that the truth regarding UFO's will
PP> remain a deep, dark, secret -- they can rest secure in the
PP> knowledge that you, are on the job.  There are any number of
PP> government agencies who would welcome you with open arms.
PP> Expect some offers.

Sorry, none so far.  We'll let you know if we get any.

PP> We are sure that the honest and sincere members of ParaNet and
PP> other UFO investigative organizations (and there are many) must be
PP> seriously considering whether your qualifications, fitness and
PP> investigative ability warrant your continuance in a position of
PP> leadership within what used to be a respected research
PP> organization.

Exactly the opposite, actually.  Most of our people are grateful for
the warning, and are coming to the same conclusions as we did.

PP> Instead of making an honest attempt to validate or
PP> disprove our findings regarding the subjects mentioned -- missing
PP> the point completely, you chose to become obsessed with determining
PP> the identity of Phoenix Project personnel. For what reason?  Do you
PP> intend to judge the validity of the information based on the
PP> credentials of those providing it?  Some people would interpret
PP> that as putting the cart before the horse.

And some people would interpret it as a determination not to fall prey
to the same fate as far too many others in this field, who trusted
strangers too easily and ended up wasting years chasing wild geese--or
worse.

PP> Explain to us how or
PP> why the credentials of our investigators, or their identity, have
PP> any bearing on the validity of the information.  Either the
PP> information is true or it isn't.  It's as simple as that, or does
PP> that simple fact escape you.

The credentials of your investigators have a strong bearing on whether
or not it is even worth the trouble to examine your "information".
Anybody can sit down for a few hours at a word processor and cook up
reams of tittilating "information" about almost any subject under the
sun.  But unless there is good reason to think there might be something
to it, it's a fool's errand to try to chase it all down.

It's like this:  If ordinary claims come from an anonymous source, they
may be assigned some measure of trust simply because they accord with
everyday experience.  If extraordinary claims come from a reputable
source, they may be assigned some measure of trust simply because of
the proven track record of the person making the claims.  But when
extraordinary claims originate from an anonymous source, they generally
are given no credence at all, because there is simply no reason to
believe they are true.  Life is too short to chase every wild goose
that comes cackling along.  There must be *some* reason--either in the
plausibility of the claim or the authority of the claimant--to think
it's worth the trouble.  You have provided neither one.

PP> How can we, or others, be assured of your motives. One does
PP> not need a brilliant mind to envision a scenario where the
PP> information the Phoenix Project has released is discredited because
PP> of an act of character assignation.

Please explain what "character assignation" is, and then maybe we can
envision the scenario you have in mind.

PP> Suppose we asked these questions -- would you be prepared to
PP> respond to them?  Who are you?  What are your credentials?  Who are
PP> those holding positions of leadership in ParaNet?  What are their
PP> qualifications and credentials?  How do we know that you or ParaNet
PP> are not controlled by government operatives?  What qualifications
PP> are required to hold a position of leadership within ParaNet?

There has never been any secret about what ParaNet is or who it
consists of.  Lists of ParaNet nodes and their sysops have been posted
to the net on several occasions.  Anyone who wants to follow the
ParaNet BBS echoes can log in to a local ParaNet node, receive the echo
digests over the net, or download them from our FTP archives.  All
postings are signed with the user name and node ID of the originator.
All articles in Continuum, ParaNet's quarterly magazine, are signed by
the authors.  I'm sorry to disappoint you, but neither our personnel
nor our purposes are in any way secret or mysterious.

PP> We were unaware that anyone had ever attempted to create a
PP> corporation in Nevada calling itself the Phoenix Project.  Due to
PP> the nature of our work, and to protect the identity of our
PP> personnel it would be a foolish endeavor. We never made an attempt
PP> to incorporate our organization in any State.

The incorporation issue originally came up because we were trying to
track down your trademark registration.  We have been unable to find
any such registration, yet at the beginning of each of your reports you
explicitly state that "all publications of the "Phoenix Project" bear
the Project's Logo (a registered trade-mark)."  Is that a lie?  It
certainly seems that a trademark registration of the project logo would
be almost as much of a threat to "the identity of your personnel" as
incorporation would be.

PP> You suggest a possible link between our organization and America
PP> West.  Sorry about that, but you're dead wrong.  It has come to us
PP> from several sources that we're not on their list of favorite
PP> people.  We will take this opportunity to categorically deny that
PP> we have any affiliation with America West, their publication the
PP> "Phoenix Liberator," or any other publication they provide.
PP>
PP> Do not expect us to respond to the other coincidences,
PP> suppositions, insinuations or innuendoes contained in your message.

Why?  Perhaps because there are other "insinuations" that cannot be
truthfully denied?  As a matter of fact, we now have solid confirmation
of another one of our "insinuations"--i.e., the fact that the Richard
Miller who owns Advent Publishing is indeed the same Richard Miller who
used to channel "Hatonn".  That confirmation came from none other than
Mr. Miller himself.  So I guess we're not doing too badly.

In consideration of your explicit denials of any ties to America West,
and in view of the additional information provided privately by Mr.
Miller, we withdraw our previous suggestion of possible connections
between the Phoenix Project and the America West/Phoenix Liberator
operation.  As we stated before, those suggestions were tentative
pending further investigation, and further investigation has not
uncovered any additional evidence to support them.  Unfortunately, this
is the kind of burden that the Phoenix Project inevitably took on when
it chose to publicly portray itself as a clandestine organization.

PP> Since you brought up America West and The "Phoenix Liberator," why
PP> not turn your investigative abilities loose on their organization.
PP> Just suppose that Milton Cooper is, quietly, linked to their
PP> organization. That should intrigue you.

It does, if true.  We also find it intriguing that you are, apparently,
using Cooper's material without attributing it to him--thereby lending
it credibility when there is every indication that it is completely
bogus.

PP> Equally intriguing, is
PP> where their funding comes from - not the obvious subscription
PP> income - the covert funding.  Or, how about the busy and numerous,
PP> off premise, writers that prepare the volumes of "Hatonn" material,
PP> and their use of high-speed modems to provide the copy for each
PP> weekly issue of the "Phoenix Liberator" and the dozens of books
PP> they produce. In our supposition, we're talking about a big-time
PP> operation. You might also check out their printing facilities,
PP> distribution centers, and world-wide circulation.  Equally
PP> fascinating is their sudden rise, in a few short years, to the top
PP> of the New Age Movement.  You might even think to ask yourself, why
PP> the New Age Movement?  What possible connection is there with
PP> covert government UFO activities, or a New World Order, with the
PP> New Age Movement?  The answer to that might be revealed, if you dig
PP> deep enough, and discover high-speed modem links between their
PP> headquarters and certain organizations located at Langley and Ft.
PP> Meade.  Yes, if you really dig, you might uncover all kinds of
PP> interesting things about America West.

Thanks for the tip.

PP> As to your effort in trying to identify staff personnel of the
PP> Phoenix Project -- good luck.  However, we do have to admit that
PP> you may get lucky and hit on a couple of them.  However, since
PP> there are many, it is doubtful you will ever get beyond that point.

Our only interest in the personnel of the Phoenix Project is to
determine whether the Project has a hidden agenda, and whether it is
covertly linked to other organizations whose agendas are known.  That
interest was made necessary by the Project's clandestine nature and
consequent lack of public accountability.  You brought it on
yourselves, and your continuing hostility and evasiveness suggest that
we were not entirely mistaken in our suspicions.

Our investigation continues.  We'll let you know what we find out.

Michael Corbin
Director
ParaNet Information Service

END

--
ParaNet Information Service - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MEN IN BLACK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:15:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

I'm sorry I called Mr. Sheaffer by the first name Ralph. His name is
Robert. I meant no disrespect. I'm very busy the last two days. I'll catch
everybody later.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11355 alt.alien.visitors:8717 sci.skeptic:29336
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:23:18 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

I called Mr. Sheaffer by the first name of Ralph. He first name is
Robert. Please excuse me. I too busy to post more at the present time.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:26:21 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

I don't have time to post anything right now. I catch everybody later.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Subject: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:31:04 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11
Lines: 26

In Article #7088, Don Showen (or is it Showden? Sorry if
I've gotten it wrong, Don) discusses Nicola Tesla's invention
of AC power generation and other related things.

In the book "Empire of the Air" (the one the PBS TV special
was based on, which focussed on radio pioneers Edwin Arm-
strong, Guiglielmo [spelling?] Marconi, and last but most
deservedly least, the egotistical know-nothing Lee DeForest),
the author(s) make brief mention of Signor Tesla.

He claimed to have gotten many of his ideas about electro-
magnetism TELEPATHICALLY FROM "CERTAIN PIGEONS".

Now, if THAT doesn't bespeak a certain degree of nuttiness
in a person's mental makeup, then I don't know what DOES.

The book also mentions that Tesla managed to cause a blackout
via a failed experiment to transmit power sans wires; obviously,
the pigeons led him astray that time.

                          ;-)

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Considerate Alien (was(Re: the missi
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:56:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 18

[e-mail](Jeremy Reimer) 18Aug 92 08:17:01  types---
>Hey I know I'm an alien.
>And to prove it I'm going to go make some crop circles,clone Gary Stollman'sa
>parents,teach my pet rock to sing & breed a colony of invisible fish.Then
>I'm going to abduct every one who reads alt.alien.visitors.
>Hey you can't prove I'm not who I say I am.

But it seems not a scientific alien.
Maybe from Entertainment Division.

   Popper is dead But he was here!!-

********************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
********************************

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <qt_n41=[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 15:27:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 22

Dear Ra,
Since you persist in reading this group, and are starting to ask
questions in a fairly sincere sort of manner, I will lay a few sources
of esoteric information on you.

Crystal Skull - The Excaliber Briefings,
Thomas E. Bearden

Venusians - Stranger at the Pentagon - Dr. Frank stranges
            I come from Venus, - Wendle Stevens, Col.(ret.)

These are the best sources for this info I have found to date.

Col. Stenvens has written books about many different aspects of
the UFO phenomena (>20) and corresponds with hundreds of
contactees all across the world in such places as Peru, Chile, Brazil,
Germany, Switzerland, China, Russia, Yugoslavia, UK, S. Africa, etc.

jeff-


P
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 7792
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:39:27 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 24

Slight alteration. Please forgive. Plus, I forgot to add my name etc

<near end>
replace 'that' with 'then' in appropriate spot in the Grey abuse
ie
THEN some officials would be leaking...

sorry about that.

BTW, I've got a .sig for ordinary mail, but how do I get a signature
for news posts? I'm using free uni vax accounts so they don't
like it when students read international news at odd hours, even if it is
off peak on the server. Since I am a little-boss over our VAX in Whyalla
I can get away with it (but if it starts getting heinously expensive,
I have said i would start paying for it). My immediate boss doesn't have
a clue and other bosses take a dim view to frivoulous activities on Uni
property, even if it is payed for.


John McVey
Enic Eng Student + Tekkie level 1 (at 19 no less!!)
Whyalla Campus, University of S Australia
Direct email to [e-mail]
ordinary (REPLY type) to [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: third alteration. 7806 '7792' is mine, too.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:33 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 11


DAMN DAMNDAMNDAMNDAMN
the addressses are
direct : [e-mail]
                            ^^^^^^^
and to my account in Adelaide, writted to in a REPLY command
       : [e-mail]
                        ^^^^^^^

John McVey
Tekkie Terror of Whyalla VAX
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: EUREKA!-a title guaranteed to be read by subscribers here.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:22:31 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 6

OK OK OK Found it
The post I was refering to was alt.athiesm #28363,
my reply being #28437 (or similar), called 're 28363 doe.. diffe.' etc

John Mcvey
Details in 7806
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: READ ME READ ME READ ME READ ME READ ME READ ME READ ME READ ME
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:28:12 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 13

Wow! Five in a row. Doing wonders for the Phone bill, aren't I?
JMcVey









Sorry, I couldn't help this. Blame it on evil aliens, if you wish, but
somehow I don't think that would wash with the Uni staff.....
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Greetings, O Earthlings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 07:39:07 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 32

Hello fellow Earth residents and visitors, again.
<vital stats down the bottom>
Read 'So Much Romanticism. Cleaned up version' for my position on aliens.

Now I know that the conversation on crop circles is genuine proposition,
but there are a few topics I'm not so sure about.
Things like INVASION (the one about the guy enrolled in Florida State Uni)
are [IMO] just creations, but are people really serious about Greys,
Pleaidians[sp?], Sirians etc? I had heard about Greys long before
I started reading this news group.
Either way, could someone give me a general rundown of the current 'in'
topics?

Would appreciate it. Post it to news rather that direct email.

I apologise for me getting carried away the other night (READ ME etc).
Jeff P.'s reply to 'So much roman..'  kinda went to the head. It wont
happen again.


--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be dissappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
'Mirror Mirror, got my fate lying in your hands'
                --Def Leppard
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kidnappings, Mutilations: Sounds like racism....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 07:49:21 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 23

Do Greys only kidnap WASP Americans?!?!?!?
If they wanted to kidnap humans by the thousand, they'd go to Russia. There
is no messy government, the people are programmed to keep their mouths shut.
This sounds like a form of racism to me, that only Americans are good enough
to be kidnapped, and that American cows are the only ones good enough
to be mutilated. I know of now story of Australian cattle being
mutilated. Hell, it would be alot easier than in America here. So much space!
Our stations are the size of small countries, including some as big as all
of Texas. Plenty of room to 'set up camp' and mutiliate to their hearts
content. Don't waffle on about our farmers being scared to report it for
fear of being ridiculed - the crop circle mystery is still reasonably
good news in some places.

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be dissappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:48:27 GMT
Lines: 39

Dear Circle Watchers: (Now, who do you suppose I sound like?)

I have been noticing all the talk about Circles. One thing I never have
seen mentioned is the fact that the British government has offered a
reward of about $20,000 for solving the crop circles. Could someone please
verify this? I heard this on the CBS special the other night. Anyway, to
continue, you must understand that much money will cause a lot of people
to take a shot in the dark at how they think they could make a Crop circle.
Seems to me that many people, "Crop Circle Knowledgable" or not, would
try to prove how it was done in hopes of collecting the reward. What they
fail to realize is some of the more subte (or unusual, you pick) attributes
of the Circles are:

Stalks bent at sharp angles without fracture. Every try bending a wheat
stalk? If its green, it will do what they call (in medical terms) a
greenstick fracture. The longitudinal fibers will separate from each
other. These stalks were bent in a short enough radius that cause that, yet
no greenstick fracturing occurred.

Genetic altering of the seed. Grains were shown normal outside the Circle
but inside the grains were shown to have mutiple embyos. Not an uncommon
occurance since some outside the circle occasionally show multiples. What
is unommmon is the fact of the much higher percentage of multiple embryo
grains. (Myself, I consider this VERY unusual.)

Signs of some sort of heating. Someone said "microwave heating". Although this
could be true, just about any enery source from ultrasonic (if there is enough
quantity) to LF RF and on up to light will cause a rise in relative temperature
of given object. Especially if its a)wet or b)porous.

Stalks are more than bent. More like weaved. In some, bases are weaved
in one direction while tops are weaved in another.

Anyone that says they did this with a 2X4 and ropes is lying. Else:
I WANT SOME OF THOSE 2X4s !!!!!!

Gregg.


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!leafusa!hal
From: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:34:44 GMT
Lines: 5

You're reading too much into it.  Hypnotherapy should always be a last resort.
Don't get into long discussions of various forms of "proof" for any
hypothesis.  My recommendations are for anyone with problems to get a
therapist who has no axe to grind, that's all.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arpowell
From: [e-mail] (Aimee Powell)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Aug19.165303.1
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 17:25:39 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ric
 Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Hal Wa
leigh) writes:
>>And DON'T let anybody hypnotize you unless you have a reason.  If you w
nt to
>
>What about the abduction victims that remembered being abducted WITHOUT
>ever being hypnotized?
>
>Why is the assumption made that if the subject was hypnotized for the
>purposes of recollecting incidents, and the incidents happen to include
>abduction, that the hypnotist HAD to have lead the subject?
>
>I mean, we're not talking about lounge act Hypnotists here... this is
>a clinical setting.
>
>Rick
>
>--
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its progra
.
>                                 |
>Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
>                                 |          and annoys the droid.



What clinical setting?  Hopkins is far from professional in his
practices, and as I understand it he uses his studio for these
sessions.

Aimee
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:03:31 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski) writes:
> In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David R. Stepien) writes:
>
>>Here's another interesting thing from the Crop Circle Communique video:
>>Some German students managed to videotape a small white disk flying through
>>a crop formation in the middle of the day, then ascending into the air and
>>disappearing.  This is clearly visible in the video.  Once again, no one
>>can explain it.
>
> Wrong.
>
> Several people have explained it, long before the video became
> widely-circulated.  I have a copy.  I share the opinion of many people
> that the object (which is not a white disc at all, but an oblong blob)
> is more likely a piece of paper being tossed about by the wind, hence
> its erratic behaviour and darting in and out among the tops of the
> plants.
>
> No, I am not a skeptic or debunker.  I'm a cerealogist.  But because I
> can explain some of the alleged effects and formations does not mean I
> discount the entire phenomenon.  What I can say is that the video is
> nor proof that Andrews' theory (or Meaden's, for that matter) is
> supported by the evidence.  What we can say is that there are
> unexplained observations and effects, but NO theory so far proposed
> seems satisfactory.
>
> --
> Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]

Chris, does that include your own theory that the object is a "piece of
paper"?

Lou

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 19:03:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Aug19.165303.1 <[e-mail]>
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Lines: 18

>
>
>What clinical setting?  Hopkins is far from professional in his
>practices, and as I understand it he uses his studio for these
>sessions.
>
>Aimee

These uniformed comments just get so old after a while. We have a plethora of
other clinicians involved in the study of abduction now, besides the much
derided Hopkins and Strieber... Dr. John Mack of Harvard ring a bell? Secret Life ring a bell? David pritchard? And hundreds less well known. When are people
going to face the fact that the VAST testimony of thousands of people can not
be dismissed with the blanket statement "Where's the evidence?~ If you took this
one to a court of law, the preponderance of testimony would be enough to make
a ruling...
So for goodness sake, can't we all become a little better informed around here?
Jeff-

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:55:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>             I'll leave you with this saying; A pessimist is a woman
>     who thinks she'll be unable to fit her car into a certain
>     space.  An optimist is a man who thinks she won't try.


OK John, I can out up with your weird stories but now you're getting
sexist.
By the way, how many times is the show with Gloria and Al going to
repeat? What an embarassment! Al is not an alien and Gloria is not
a channel. I know these people and IMHO they are phoney.

For those of you in the bay area who get Heritage cable, John hosts
a tv show called Science Faction. Its on channel 2B (community channel)
on Tuesdays at 5:30pm and Thursdays at 9:30pm. Gloria and Al are mother
and son who came to two of my UFO Group meetings and decided to become
overnight authorities. Al claims to be an incarnate alien. And Gloria
suddenly started channeling all my info and saying an alien gave it to
her.She even told the veiwers it was her group and gave out her home
number. Well, our group unanimously decided not to invite them back.
Just filling you in so I don't get verbally beat up for sending
personal mail.

--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible and UFOs (can you help?)
Keywords: bible, UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:27:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (doug degroot) writes:
>
>I am trying to find what appears to be an obviously out of print book. I found
>this book in the Merridian, Mississippi library, of all places, while selling
>Bibles in Mississippi the summer I graduated from high school. The book was
>entitled something like "The Bible and UFOs" or "UFOs and the Bible" or whatever.
>Doug DeGroot
>[e-mail]


If you should find any information on this book please share it.
I would also like to read it. Were you aware the Vatican has in there
posession one or more of the dead sea scrolls that deal with extrat-
erestrial visitations and they won't let anyone else see it?

--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: Korresponding with Klass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 19:23:56 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:

[letters deleted]
|> A question arises concerning Klass' letter: What was his real purpose
|> in writing it? He's clearly smart enough to know that I'm not stupid
|> enough to take him up on a "wager" like this, so what purpose does the
|> letter really serve? I have several ideas, but I would like to hear
|> from the rest of you.
|>
[sig toasted]


I get the distinct impression that the old fart was just yanking your
chain. Kind of funny too. Maybe he's not such a jerk after all ;^)


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!oct17.dfe.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:11:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 50


Fun is fun, John, but enough is enough!

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>     The  Sun is a world like any  other except it's very big.  There's
>     no fire on its surface, no more than on the Earth or any
>     other planet.  In fact, even less, because it's  a very old
>     world and it's cooling process is greater.  The humanity is similar
>     to Earth except lighter and taller, and more advanced in know-
>     ledge.

Please explain how the "humanity" holds itself upright against the Sun's
gravity. Explain why you believe the Sun is older than the Earth.

>             The Sun has its own self-lighted light,reflected by
>     the light of the spirits.  It attracts its light from the other
>     solar systems.

These two sentences are contradictory. Which is it?

>             Imagine a huge magnifying glass in the universe.  This
>     magnifying glass is an atmospheric layer between the Sun and
>     the planets.  It works something like this; The Sun emits
>     energy rays, and when they hit this atmospheric  layer, they
>     ignite into fire and light.  At a given point in the universe,
>     there is a cosmic layer between the planets and the Sun.

Explain the Sun's gravitational pull, since you alledge it's hollow. Explain
the Solar neutrinos, which require a nuclear reaction. Explain the source of
the "energy rays". Explain how the "atmospheric layer" remains intact, hovering
"between the Sun and the planets", unbounded by anything. Explain why the
intense radiation from this "layer" only propagates outward, and not down onto
the "humanity" - radiation intense enough to sunburn you from 93,000,000 miles
away.

>             This information agrees a great deal with a lot of
>     other information that has come to me except the Sun may consist
>     of abhout 11 different worlds that rotate  and cause the dif-
>     ferent cycles of the Sun spots.  I'm still open to new infor-
>     mation.

Explain why the bodies of the Solar System are gravitationally attracted to one
center of mass, and not to the (presumably moving) center of mass of these 11
worlds. Explain why the 11 worlds have not tidally disrupted each other due to
their density and close proximity.

As someone else asked, do you believe every single thing you ever hear or read,
without question, or what?

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 20:36:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>Dear Circle Watchers: (Now, who do you suppose I sound like?)
>
>I have been noticing all the talk about Circles. One thing I never have
>seen mentioned is the fact that the British government has offered a
>reward of about $20,000 for solving the crop circles.

This is very interesting, but do you not mean 20,000 pounds?

>                                                       Could someone please
>verify this? I heard this on the CBS special the other night. Anyway, to
>continue, you must understand that much money will cause a lot of people
>to take a shot in the dark at how they think they could make a Crop circle.
>Seems to me that many people, "Crop Circle Knowledgable" or not, would
>try to prove how it was done in hopes of collecting the reward. What they
>fail to realize is some of the more subte (or unusual, you pick) attributes
>of the Circles are:
>
>Stalks bent at sharp angles without fracture. Every try bending a wheat
>stalk? If its green, it will do what they call (in medical terms) a
>greenstick fracture. The longitudinal fibers will separate from each
>other. These stalks were bent in a short enough radius that cause that, yet
>no greenstick fracturing occurred.
>
>Genetic altering of the seed. Grains were shown normal outside the Circle
>but inside the grains were shown to have mutiple embyos. Not an uncommon
>occurance since some outside the circle occasionally show multiples. What
>is unommmon is the fact of the much higher percentage of multiple embryo
>grains. (Myself, I consider this VERY unusual.)

I'm not sure I understand how this is a sign of altered genes.

>Signs of some sort of heating. Someone said "microwave heating". Although this
>could be true, just about any enery source from ultrasonic (if there is enough
>quantity) to LF RF and on up to light will cause a rise in relative temperature
>of given object. Especially if its a)wet or b)porous.
>
>Stalks are more than bent. More like weaved. In some, bases are weaved
>in one direction while tops are weaved in another.
>
>Anyone that says they did this with a 2X4 and ropes is lying. Else:
>I WANT SOME OF THOSE 2X4s !!!!!!

In some ways, this reminds me of the claims made of the shroud.

>Gregg.


Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arpowell
From: [e-mail] (Aimee Powell)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <1992Aug19.165303.1 <[e-mail]
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:26:42 GMT
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) wr
tes:
>>
>>
>>What clinical setting?  Hopkins is far from professional in his
>>practices, and as I understand it he uses his studio for these
>>sessions.
>>
>>Aimee
>
>These uniformed comments just get so old after a while. We have a pletho
a of
>other clinicians involved in the study of abduction now, besides the muc

>derided Hopkins and Strieber... Dr. John Mack of Harvard ring a bell? Se
ret Life ring a bell? David pritchard? And hundreds less well known. When
are people
>going to face the fact that the VAST testimony of thousands of people ca
 not
>be dismissed with the blanket statement "Where's the evidence?~ If you t
ok this
>one to a court of law, the preponderance of testimony would be enough to
make
>a ruling...
>So for goodness sake, can't we all become a little better informed aroun
 here?
>Jeff-
>



Uniformed comments?  I hope the uniform *fits*...

If you meant *uninformed*, then you are dead wrong.  To the contrary,
I have read many books on the subject, all of which were written by
"researchers" like Hopkins.  And I have actually spoken to Hopkins
on this subject.  How 'bout you?

The psychologist from Harvard is investigating this phenomenon as
just exactly that, and to my knowledge has not taken the position
that the people he has interviewed are being abducted.  The tech-
niques used by those proponents of the abduction theory have been
called into question by many reputable sources.

Finally, I think that "thousand" is an overstatement.  Even Hopkins
only puts the numbers of "confirmed abductees" in the low hundreds.
And the evidence is far from overwhelmingly conclusive even from those
few people.  In fact, many of them don't believe that they have been
abducted at all.

How much reading on the other side have you done?  Are you as well in-
formed as you would have us think initially?  Or are you calling me un-
informed simply because we don't share the same opinion of all this?
p
I would hope not.

Aimee
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:36:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>     Subject: Our Sun.
>             At the presemt time I'd like to make a statement that
>     will probubly make most conventional scientist roll on the
>     floor laughing.  The statement is there are people living
>     on the Sun and they have come to the Earth in the past.
[A lot of silliness deleted]

John - this is so silly, and contradicts so much basic knowledge about
how the universe works, that a refutation of it, and what follows,
is pointless.

Did you know that the Moon is really made of green cheese?

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:39:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I don't have time to post anything right now. I catch everybody later.
>John Winston.

I _do_ have the time, but I don't have anything to say.  But then neither
does John. :-)

John - can't catch me! :-)

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:42:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <qt_n41=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
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In article <qt_n41=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>Dear Ra,

It's RA, not Ra (but I forgive you).

>Since you persist in reading this group, and are starting to ask
>questions in a fairly sincere sort of manner, I will lay a few sources
>of esoteric information on you.
>
>Crystal Skull - The Excaliber Briefings,
>Thomas E. Bearden
>
>Venusians - Stranger at the Pentagon - Dr. Frank stranges
>            I come from Venus, - Wendle Stevens, Col.(ret.)
>
>These are the best sources for this info I have found to date.

I will attempt to find these.  In the meantime, could you summarize the
evidence in favor of an ancient origin of Max (the skull)?

    RA
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11380 alt.alien.visitors:8742 sci.skeptic:29373
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:48:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>     SUBJECT : THE OSTERICH PEOPLE
[...]
>          A French team  headed by famed anthropologist Dr. Etienne
>     Charbonal were investigating tthis group of people and eventually got
>     there confidence. A group of the Osterich people (if not all of them)
>     showed up one night, minus their clothes, having silver paint all over
>     their bodies and invited the good doctor for a midnight hike. After
>     going into the jungle for hours, the doctor  and team were shown a
>     large silver dome. Most of the space craft was covered with
>     vegitation. The native people then began to dance wildly around the
>     craft singing a song to their ancestors  of the sky.
>          The dome was like nothing on earth. On the way back, from the
>     craft, one of the elders of the group told Dr. Charbonal that  200
>     years ago, the large "spinning sun" had fallen from the sky, bringing
>     the tribal ancestors to this remote part of the jungle  area.  That
>     was all anyone rembered.
>          More will be known when the French team returns to the jungle  to
>     study the UFO.

I hope they remember to bring their cameras this time :-).

>     Information source: Sept. 26,1989 Sun pg. 7.

'Sun' - this wouldn't be that paragon of journalistic integrity, the
_Midnight_Sun_, would it?

>        I'll leave you with this saying;

Where are you getting these?  Reader's Digest?

    RA
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29374 alt.alien.visitors:8743 talk.religion.newage:11381
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:26:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[...]
>                                But did build the first AC power plant at
>Niagra Falls seven years later.  He also invented radio and remote control,
>a saucer engine, etc.
   ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
I know Tesla designed a lot of useful things, and a lot of strange &
controversial things.  Are the plans for the saucer engine available?

>                       So I would say AC, radio, and his other 700 patents
>are a little more complex than the wheel.

Yes, but _Tesla_ invented them - not the aliens.  He may have credited them,
but he was by no means unskilled or lacking in knowledge.  I can easily
believe him capable of designing everything he did on his own.

>He also had a way to end war for which he was killed.

So he's dead, and can't tell us what it is?

>                       Now the thing that is really a joke is Tesla is
>hanging around wanting to share stuff,  but all our er, scientist, don't
>believe they can contact him so he comes through old ladies who don't even
>know what rf means.

Have these little old ladies come up with any remarkable inventions?  And
what about the 'way to end war'?  Or has the afterlife given poor Nick a
mental block?  If _I_ was gonna bother being hauled out of Limbo or Heaven
or whatever to answer some questions, I'd make damn sure I told everybody
the way to end war.  But I bet all Nick ever talks about is 'light' and
'love' and how neat things are on his side of the barrier.

>
>DS
>
>It sounds to me like you belong to that cult that believes the speed of
>light is constant.

For any particular medium it is.  Do you have evidence it isn't?  Want a
Nobel Prize?  There's only one person I know of that ever seriously considered
turning one of these down - Richard Feynman.  And even he ended up accepting
it.

>Is this post short enough for you?

Just fine, thanks.

    RA
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29376 alt.alien.visitors:8744 talk.religion.newage:11382
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Xenon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:53:04 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>
  [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>It sounds to me like you belong to that cult that believes the speed of
>>light is constant.
>
>For any particular medium it is.  Do you have evidence it isn't?  Want a
>Nobel Prize?  There's only one person I know of that ever seriously considered
>turning one of these down - Richard Feynman.  And even he ended up accepting
>it.

From the Complete Irrelevancies Department,  I believe that
somebody refused to accept his Nobel Prize for Literature.  I
don't remember who, though.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled New Age Wierdness,
already in progress.

>    RA

C Frog
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible and UFOs (can you help?)
Keywords: bible, UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:35:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (doug degroot) writes:
>
>I am trying to find what appears to be an obviously out of print book. I found
>this book in the Merridian, Mississippi library, of all places, while selling
>Bibles in Mississippi the summer I graduated from high school. The book was
>entitled something like "The Bible and UFOs" or "UFOs and the Bible" or
>whatever.

I read this!!!  It's 'UFOs & the Bible'.  Found it in a used book store, bought
it for a quarter.  Unfortunately I no longer have it :-(.  I'd say used book
stores are your best bet.

He covers all the usual von Daniken stuff - pillars of fire, wheels within
wheels, etc.  But then when he gets to the New Testiment he gets really funky,
and says Jesus was a Space Alien, and babbles about 'Resurrection Universes'.
Fun stuff.

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:42:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rick Pavek) writes:
[...]
>To validate his point here...  all you have to do is watch the Republican
>National Convention going on right now and see the President's men
                                            ^^^
But you saw it - so it wasn't covered up, was it?

>viciously supressing the "ACT UP" and other gate-crashers.
[...]
>
>If that isn't an example of the government supressing information it doesn't
>want known, then I can't imagine what would be.

But the point is, they were only partially successful.  They stopped the ACT-UP
guys from being seen by the delegates.  But they didn't make ACT-UP disappear
as if they'd never existed.

Nixon's thugs couldn't keep Watergate under wraps.  Reagan's couldn't keep
Iran-Contra from the public.  But the Alien Conspiracy (tm) _has_ been
successful, through no less than 9 Presidents?  C'mon.

    RA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Korresponding with Klass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:53:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
writes:
>The following is a letter I received from Philip Klass, and my reply to it:
[much deleted]
>And since you do seem to know who he is, I will decline your wager. You
>may know him well enough to know that he won't come forward, although
>perhaps it is because he was in bed at his mistress' apartment in that
>building rather than at home. But thanks for confirming that he exists,
>and thus lending credence to the events he may have either witnessed or
>just missed witnessing.

Can you say 'grasping at straws'?  'Lending credence' indeed.

    RA
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11386 alt.alien.visitors:8748 sci.skeptic:29377
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:59:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I called Mr. Sheaffer by the first name of Ralph. He first name is
>Robert. Please excuse me. I too busy to post more at the present time.
>John Winston.

I too busy to type the word 'am' (oops!). :-)

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 00:50:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <1992Aug19.165303.1 <[e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Aimee Powell) writes:
>
>I have read many books on the subject, all of which were written by
>"researchers" like Hopkins.  And I have actually spoken to Hopkins
>on this subject.  How 'bout you?

    Oh, you have actually spoken to one of many researchers whose
work you dismiss out of hand... Was it edifying? I can't imagin you gave
the poor man much of a chance.
>
>The psychologist from Harvard is investigating this phenomenon as
>just exactly that, and to my knowledge has not taken the position
>that the people he has interviewed are being abducted.

iEEEERRRRRTTTTTT! Sorry! But please accept our consolation prize!

The tech-
>niques used by those proponents of the abduction theory have been
>called into question by many reputable sources.

Only those that are predisposed to their comfortable reality and search for
any avenue by which to derail the conversation...

>
>Finally, I think that "thousand" is an overstatement.  Even Hopkins
>only puts the numbers of "confirmed abductees" in the low hundreds.
>And the evidence is far from overwhelmingly conclusive even from those
>few people.  In fact, many of them don't believe that they have been
>abducted at all.


>
>How much reading on the other side have you done?  Are you as well in-
>formed as you would have us think initially?  Or are you calling me un-
>informed simply because we don't share the same opinion of all this?
>p
>I would hope not.
>
>Aimee

Well, once again, myrads of uniformed opinions. If you look into Mack, you'll
find he sponsered a Roper poll that found that over 3 million americans my have
been abducted... and if you read "Secret Life:
You'll find that Dr. Macks forward in that book does not reflect your above synopsis
in the least. So read the DAMN BOOK! It's the current definitive work on the
subject. And it's far more scholarly that anything currently written, and basically
supports all of Hopkins work, more or less.

I wish I had someone to converse with who would read this thing so I could
have an INTERESTING conversation around here.
Jeff -

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11389 alt.alien.visitors:8750 sci.skeptic:29381
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 20:58:18 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 39

     Subject: People Evacuation Part 1.
             It seems that in the training that has been given to me
     in the past by the space people one of its purposes was to
     make me a person who would be aboard a craft and help others
     to be calm in case of a personnel evacuation.  I'm not saying
     there is going to be one at the present time but if there
     ever was one I'd be ready.
             If you will, please let me conduct you on an imaginary
     evacuation.  First of all you should hope to be invited to be
     taken aboard by some people that are from local planets for
     they say Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and
     Pluto do have human life in their appropriate form (you notice
     they didn't say they looked exactly like us especiallly).
             The Brotherhood has on call over 11,000,000 craft the
     last I heard.  They range from 30 foot shuttles (our word for
     it) to motherships 360 feet long.  One mother carries about 50
     shuttles.  Then they have ships that are called arks like the
     seven cities of Shan.  Some ships have names such as Transvaal
     and one called Phoenix.  The next are minature worlds like the
     New Jerusalem which is 1,500 miles square, but then I'm getting
     into religion.
             There are two or more ways to get picked up.  The first
     is teleportation.  It's best to stand still with your two hands
     together pointed straight up.  This will cut down on the reac-
     tion your body may have to the  magnetic fild that is used to
     pick you up.  The second way is like you going into Noah's Ark.
             This will be a lot like taking a trip aboard an air line
     such as The Alaskian Air Line.  You may be greeted by a person
     like myself from Earth who will calm you down and tell you
     where to go.  I'll introduce you to some very nice space people
     who will be taking you to a place that will be commensurante
     with your present developement.
             That's all for now.
             I'll leave you with this saying;  I have heard a saying
     on Earth that is we ever went to another planet and found
     another type of people or creatures that that were less
     intelligent than we are we would ??? them.
             This is being  posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I
     am not Don.  Don is not me.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:01:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 73

     Subject: The Photon Belt.

     In the past years my Guru Merle told me repeatedly about the time
     called the Three Days of Darkness.  This was a time when the Earth
     would go through a time that the Sun couldn't be seen and there
     wouldn't be any light. I didn't think too much about it but this last
     week I got some information from a magazine called The Phoenix
     Liberator, P.O. Box 986 Tehachapi, CA. 93581, that had more  to say
     about the subject. Before telling you what it said let me  first state
     that that my friend Don Showen doesn't think very highly of this
     organization and another friend of mine call Paul Weston thinks that
     the  information is very good,  so you can come to your  own
     conclusion, I don't  know which is right.
     To paraphrase the information here it is in my own words: Our Earth
     and solar system rotates around a central sun called Alclone. Oh,
     incidentally this information comes from a person called Gyeorgos
     Hatonn. It takes our solar system 24,000 years  to make it all the way
     around the circle.  Our solar system is about to  enter a cosmic
     cloud. This is part of a  12,000 year cycle because the cloud  is like
     a belt and we run through it two times a cycle. This photon belt or
     band was discovered by Earth people in 1961. The Pleiades system is
     connected to all of this information.  It is recognized as the Wee
     Dipper (Little Dipper),the  Seven  Sisters  and man  estimates it  to
     be about 400 light  years away but it actually is over 500 light years
     from planet Earth. The Pleiades were discovered that they  form a
     system of which our sun is a part. When planets of you solar system
     get  in  trouble  as you have, many ones are often shifted  to
     Pleiades-- to various and sundry  planet in Pleiades-- and you will
     have to  realize at some  point that  much of you populations come
     from Pleiades.
     What happened to  those Mayans?  The Mayans  departed hurriedly with
     the message also of their return which scholars will now say is
     imminent.   The major influence of the photon belt passage will be
     about 120 hours, some 4 to 5 days in duration. Some of the signs of
     it's approach will be 1.There will be very strange lighting-strange
     colors, in the sky- and a perception actually of less light even
     though it be mid-summer in you time zone. It will seem a little less
     lighted to you. In other words, you're going to have a gradual
     darkening of the planet itself.

     You're going to note that some of the animals, most of you will not
     notice it, but you';re going to have early hibernation and some
     animals even moving into hibernation in the early fall if it comes
     into the fall, you see.

     In the United States, you have just experienced the warmest winter
     since you have been keeping records. This is one of the signs of
     approaching this belt. 2. You'll see more UFOs and have humming
     (unusual) sounds in your ears.  If the sun enters first into the
     photon belt,there will be immediate darkness. This is going to last
     about 120 hours and then it will move into continuous light because
     you will be focusing magnetically and this pulls you more into the
     orbiting system of Pleiades where you're going to have at least two
     suns and we're not talking necessarily of the larger central sun other
     than that a any given time for a long period of time you will be
     experiencing a form of light or sunlight throughout your 24 hours.
     You won't be having darkness because of the balance of the rays from
     either direction.

     If the earth enters first, your going to have the phenomenon occur
     which basically is more dreadful to us because you will act probably
     in panic. In the dark you may act in panic, but there's very little
     you can do other than run into things. If the light comes and you are
     unprepared for this type of light, you're going to be damaged,
     seriously damaged. This is all mentioned in the bible in the book of
     Revelation. Now your experiencing what Earth scientists call Ozone
     Holes and extra ultraviolet rays. No, you are experiencing the coming
     into into this Photon Belt and you're going to have to consider this
     to be x-rays, invisible penetrating rays of light, and this can be
     extremely harmful. Earth scientist know about this.

     Hatton says this could all happen on July 25, l992 to the end of July
     1992.  That's all for now. John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:03:13 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Everybody: You'll notice that some of the things mentioned in the
last posting didn't happen.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:04:37 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say anything.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11390 alt.alien.visitors:8754
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:08:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 99

In the bottom of the crater there is a small lake.  As most people
know the cinders and soil made from volcanic ash are very furtile and
will grow plants if they are watered properly.  The thing that
interested me was that this student said there were people living
inside the craater by the lake.  They were normal people and not like
the people inside the mountain.  They wore overralls and the women
wore long dresses much like the clothes people wore in the United
States during the 1880's.  The men had old time type of guns that
looked sort of like a blunderbust.  The people were friendly and
talked with the ranger about the fire trail.  They were trying to keep
areas around the mountain cleared of vegetation so that if a fire came
up to that point it would stop.  They found out that some people
during World War 2 had tried to get away from being drafted by hiding
inside the crater.  As far as the story went they stayed in there for
quite a while.
    I told Nola about this story but she had never heard of it and
rather doughted it.  She had heard stories of people going into that
area during the winter and nearly freezing down near the lake at
night.  That's one area that could use some more checking out.
    Mt. Shasta is not too hard to climb from the west side where
the ski lodge is.  People start off from the ski lodge and can make it
up in one day.  If they are very good they can make it up and back in
a day.  I've even heard of a real mountain climber that started by
himself and made it across Shastina from the north side, went over the
main peak of Mt. Shasta then down the Mud Creek area on the southeast
side into the McCloud area in just one day.
    There are times that people come from an area like the San
Francisco area that is only 40 feet in elevation and come to Widow
Springs that is about 5,000 feet elevation only to find that their
noses would start bleeding uncontrolably before they even start their
climb.  It's best to come to the area from one to two weeks before you
attempt to climb the mountain.  Two weeks is the best amount of time
to get accustomed to the altitude but most people in good shape can
make it OK in one day if you really want to stretch it.
    Nola once met a young man that was highly gifted with ESP who
had the ability to bound up the side of the mountain to the door.  He
could make it up in nearly a run.  Nola has had old ladies 72 years
old who went through the two week training period at Widow Springs
actually make it all the way up and into the door.  They followed the
instructions exactly and were allowed to go inside the mountain.
    During one of my trips to Mt. Shasta the next year I had a few
people out at work who wanted to go with  me.  Two of us started
getting into shape about two months before we went.  We had gotten in
shape by taking about 6 mile hikes.  I had a little incident that
happened to me previous to that time that had cut 5 tendons and one
artery but the doctors had me all wired back together and then removed
the wire and I was getting OK.  My oldest boy was then about 15 and in
perfect shape (pole vaulter and all that  sort of thing).  There were
two hippies about 21 years old that  came along also.  My friend Bob
was also along and he was also a hippy.  He had walked me into the
ground during a previous trip.
    We thought we really had it made this time because  we brought
along a Susuki 80 cc trail bike.  We got up there and you guessed it,
that bike wouldn't even make it up to the jeep trail.  I wound up
kicking the thing in the tire.  So here we were one happy group.  The
first thing that happened was that we couldn't find the jeep trail and
wound up hiking from a nearby road for 5 miles before we got up to our
original starting point.  We were takiing it pretty easy so far, sort
of like a sunday strole.  After getting up to the tree line and
passing the cedars, the spring, after finally getting through the
shale a little bit then everybody sort of went a little crazy.  Bob
(the boy that had walked me into the ground before) all of a sudden
started yelling at me, "Your not going to walk me to death up here".
Then I asssured him that I had no intentions of walking  him to death
so he decided to go back down the mountain.  Another one of our group
developed a blister so he decided to go back down.  One of the hippies
started getting a headache.  My mind was changing in just the other
direction.  I decided to spend the night on the mountain with just my
coat on and make it the rest of the way up in the morning.  Then
another person started pleading with me not to try to do that.  He was
just about in tears so I promised him that I'd come back that evening.
    So all of them except my friend that had gotten in good shape
had turned back.  While talking with the others my friend had struck
up the hill without me and was about 50 yards ahead of me.  The wind
was blowing pretty hard in our ears so he coulldn't hear me when I
called to him.  I struck out after him.  We were at about 10,000 feet
and could only walk about 30 yards before we were breathing like a
race horse and would have to rest for a while then start out again.
Finallly I caught him.  We finally got to an area where we had to rope
ourselves together while the other one would go over a dangerous area.
All this time I was wondering how in the world that a 72 year old lady
made it up there.  By this time the mountain area was really getting
big.  You could put a good size town on that mountain up on those
glaciers.  We finally got up  to a bunch of rocks and decided to rest
for a while.  My friend ssaid he saw a large rock about the size of a
baseball go past his head but he thought at the time I had caused it
to fall but I wasn't above him at the time.  We took a few pictures
enjoying the scenery but didn't find the door and decided to go back
down.
    When we got down we found that the hippy's headache had gotten
worse and he had passsed out on the way down the mountain.  They had
to go get the truck, come and get him and bring him back to Widow
Springs.  He was resting there when we got back and finally got OK a
few hours later.
    We all made it home but  these same men  came back a month
later during their vacations and climbed the mountain again. This time
they slept in sleeping bags on the side of the mountain but nearly
froze on the mountain over night.  One of them (Bob) made it all the
way to the top.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29386 alt.alien.visitors:8755 talk.religion.newage:11393
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!network.ucsd.edu!sdcc12!sdcc3!slinke
From: [e-mail] (Steven Linke)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 92 07:25:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Lines: 72
Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc3.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>To clear things up it is 12 strands of dna which equate to the 12 chakras
>of the human system.  I read our dna is 7.5 foot long (in a newspaper :-)
>).  Anyway the point is that there could possibly be 12 strands in the 7.5
>foot strand.  It makes a lot of sense when the chakras are considered.

However, it doesn't make much sense when you consider that human DNA
is actually composed of 46 strands of DNA, ranging in size from 1.7 cm
to 8.5 cm when uncoiled.  These so-called chakras must be bogus.

>It
>also makes a lot of sense that only the first two are active or intact and
>the rest are idle or scattered.  Which directly equates to why we only use
>a small percentage of our mind. And why we have a society stuck in
>survival.

Actually, all 46 strands are active in males and 45 of the strands
are active in females.  Which doesn't have the slightest effect on
what percentage of our minds we use.

I work at the same institution as the researcher who discovered the
two-stranded helical structure of DNA (Francis Crick).  He even got
the Nobel Prize for this work.  If you have evidence that your DNA
is TRIPLE-stranded as you claim, I'm sure he would be interested in
doing X-ray crystallography on it to verify this fact.

>As I see dna scientists start to roar this
>isn t what they told me is school.  I would like to suggest that even if
>the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
>explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
>our dna may not be physical it could be in another energy sprectum we have
>not detected.

The physical structure of DNA is well-characterized.  If your "12
heli" aren't physical, then they aren't DNA.  Maybe they are HIINA's
(hottub-inducible imaginary nucleic acids).

>It sounds to me like you are saying that unless one of your high priests
>okays it you are not allowed to think of it.  You know I made an attempt to
>get some input on this very net.  Someone came on sounding like he knew
>something about dna but wound up saying breathing could kill and had the
>audacity to tell me not to do what I have been doing for the last 16 years.
>And actually tried to warn,  scare, people away from what I do.

I am the "high priest" who came on and warned people.  I didn't warn
them that breathing would kill them.  I warned them that purposely
causing yourself to hyperventilate will not "activate your DNA," but
rather inactivate your oxygen supply and may lead to death.  If
anybody stopped breathing a few months ago when I posted that
message, by all means resume normal breathing immediately.  Holding
your breath over several months will also inactive your oxygen
supply and will lead to death.

>I really
>hope,  someday, to find what I call fourth dimensional scientists to work
>with on detecting and documenting the occurrence.  After all if I could
>send my clients somewhere and they could get a readout of the status of
>their 12 heli it would make my work easier.

Please send me some of your DNA.  I would be happy to get the ball
rolling on the analysis of your triple-stranded DNA.  I must admit,
though, that all of the scientists here (including myself) live and
work in the three-dimensional world.  Therefore, we might not be
able to detect your HIINA.



--
Steve Linke
Salk Institute (Gene Expression Lab)
La Jolla, CA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!ParaNet.Information.Service
From: [e-mail] (ParaNet Information Service)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CORRECTION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:04:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 19

On August 20, 1992, ParaNet published a message from Richard Miller,
owner of Advent Publishing,  regarding his relationship to the Phoenix
Project.  Our preface to that message stated, incorrectly, that "this
Richard Miller is the Richard Miller who was associated with George
Green."  It should have stated that "this Richard Miller is the Richard
Miller who once channelled an entity called Hatonn."  Mr. Green's
publications also purport to contain messages from this same Hatonn;
but this fact does not necessarily imply any prior or present
relationship between Richard Miller on the one hand and George Green,
America West, or the Phoenix Liberator on the other.  Mr. Miller has in
fact stated that no such relationship has ever existed, and we have no
reason at this time to dispute his assertion.

We regret the error and apologize to Mr. Miller for the confusion.

--
ParaNet Information Service - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11395 alt.alien.visitors:8757 sci.skeptic:29391
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 06:15:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Everybody: Thanks to the god RA the proper spelling of Osterich is
Ostrich. I'll answer more when I get some time.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 06:22:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

I still have no time to answer people. Later.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 06:25:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Thanks Bob I needed that. It's good to know that someone is out there.
John Winton.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible and UFOs (can you help?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: bible, UFO
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:02:40 GMT
Lines: 20

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>>
>>I am trying to find what appears to be an obviously out of print book. I found
>>this book in the Merridian, Mississippi library, of all places, while selling
>>Bibles in Mississippi the summer I graduated from high school. The book was
>>entitled something like "The Bible and UFOs" or "UFOs and the Bible" or
>>whatever.

I think the book you're looking for is "The Bible and Flying Saucers"
by Barry Downing.  I have it in paperback, but there is another with a
similar title which I have in my collection (I can't remember the
author's name offhand).  There are, of course, a number of books which
deal in the Von Daankien stuff, but Downing's book is a theological
discussion of ET's, the Bible and the implications of contact, and
predated Von Daaniken's fluff by several years.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:12:19 GMT
Lines: 48

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>Here's another interesting thing from the Crop Circle Communique video:
>>>Some German students managed to videotape a small white disk flying through
>>>a crop formation in the middle of the day, then ascending into the air and
>>>disappearing.  This is clearly visible in the video.  Once again, no one
>>>can explain it.
>>
>> Several people have explained it, long before the video became
>> widely-circulated.  I have a copy.  I share the opinion of many people
>> that the object (which is not a white disc at all, but an oblong blob)
>> is more likely a piece of paper being tossed about by the wind, hence
>> its erratic behaviour and darting in and out among the tops of the
>> plants.
>>
>> No, I am not a skeptic or debunker.  I'm a cerealogist.  But because I
>> can explain some of the alleged effects and formations does not mean I
>> discount the entire phenomenon.  What I can say is that the video is
>> nor proof that Andrews' theory (or Meaden's, for that matter) is
>> supported by the evidence.  What we can say is that there are
>> unexplained observations and effects, but NO theory so far proposed
>> seems satisfactory.

>Chris, does that include your own theory that the object is a "piece of
>paper"?

Ah, good point.

Yes, it does.  A TRUE skeptic (NOT a "debunker") will doubt his or her
own theories.  Yes, the position that the disc on film was a piece of
paper may be unsatisfactory to some people, but to others, it is quite
acceptable.  I'm not alone in my opinion that the object was a piece of
dross, and there are those who insist the object was a miniature
saucer.  But the theory about paper is easy to support because people
in the area say that winds frequently were picking up paper and tossing
it around the fields - exactly the same type of winds that Meaden needs
for his vortex theory, incidentally.  To sugest the object was really a
small saucer would mean it was a probe of some sort, directed from the
invisible mothership (since no saucer has been seen to make the circles
in the Wiltshire area).

Take your pick.  BTW, I'm not saying that crop circles aren't
mysterious.  I'm just pointing out that much of the so-called "proof"
is weak or has other explanations.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate![[e-mail]]
From: "russell tisseman" <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: crop circles?
Message-ID: <1992Aug22.1561.9956@dosgate>
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:54:05 EST
Reply-To: "russell tisseman" <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Lines: 27

JR=>Haven't you ever heard of the phenomena of "copycat crimes?"  If two "older
  =>guys" can fake a crop circle, what prevents other people from faking crop
  =>circles?  There's no reason why other people might be BETTER at faking crop
  =>circles than these two.  I for one would LOVE to fake a crop circle, and if I
  =>ever get a chance to, I will.  It would be interesting to see if any UFOlogists
  =>would be able to tell if it was fake or not.  Just because TWO people were

The thing I don't understand about this theory of people making the
crop circles is this; why. Wouldn't the artists who made these quite
elaborate patterns do it for some kind of recognition. I mean I
wouldn't go to so much trouble just to keep a hoax going. You would
think that someone would have come forward by now an fess up. And
since there are so many of these circles being created all over the
world I can not believe that nobody has witnessed one of these people
at work.

One more thing, are these crop circles being made by the same method?
If so that would seem unusual also.

What do you guys think?

               Russel
---
 ■ 1st 1.00 #279 ■ Operator Halted! Cannot find coffee.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate![[e-mail]]
From: "russell tisseman" <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: crop circles?
Message-ID: <1992Aug22.1561.9957@dosgate>
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:54:05 EST
Reply-To: "russell tisseman" <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Lines: 12

RP=>Keith, investigations into the claims of the 'confessing hoaxters'
  =>revealed that they were likely paid to 'confess' by Her Majesties'
  =>government.

What evidence was presented to support this theory?

               Russel
---
 ■ 1st 1.00 #279 ■ 1stReader: Dance with the one that brung ya.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Korresponding with Klass
Message-ID: <s6+n1+=[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 22:31:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>
>Just out of curiosity, is Philip Klass the paranormal investigator the same
>Philip Klass who (as William Tenn) wrote some of the best science
>fiction of the fifties and sixties?  ("Child's Play", for instance.  I
>remember reading it around age eleven...)

     No.

>


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 17:53:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <1992Aug19.170256.11432@kbsw1> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: Well it looks like Lenard, Bear, Jeramy and RA have been
trying to eat me up as usual. The magazine referred to is the tabloid
Magazine called Sun.
John Winston.
ok
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 18:06:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 85

TRANSFER      SUBJECT: Three star tells all..........

       While I was in Phoenix Arizona, at the Alternate Alien and New Age
     convention, I met Tim, (mr. UFO Beckley) the author of the UFO
     Magazine, called UFO UNIVERSE. He seems like a very nice person, and I
     enjoy reading his magazine.
       One of the articles in his Oct-Nov 1991 issue of his magazine, had
     to do with an unidentified 3 star general. Here are some of the points
     he made;
     In regards to the book, (The Roswell Incident) I was given some
     articles to look at, and was asked to participate in the "AWARENESS
     PROGRAM", which is a means of disseminating alien contact to the
     public. Although I had turned this down, I later was shown some
     articles, a tape and still photographs. In these I saw the alien
     craft, the frozen alien bodies, (from the Roswell site) and the live
     alien which is a guest of the US Government.
       There have been several UFO crashes over the years. The aliens
     really have no "invasion" planned for this planet. They have visited
     on and off here, for thousands of years.
       Our US guest is over 300 years old. The aliens use about 55% of
     their brain capacity,or ability; they do have DNA. The alien which is
     a guest of the US Government,is 5"3 tall, weighs 96 lbs., has a large
     head (hairless) and large slanted eyes. Some of the aliens abilities
     include moderate telepathy and telekenisis.
       Cattle, as well as humans have been used in alien and US research
     for various biological applications. Most humans are not hurt in the
     research and experimentation. Some however have died due to
     complications and downright carelessness.
       Several cross breed young have been born to both human females and
     alien females. We humans are fully biological with most visiting
     aliens. Some we are not.(more than one type or species has visited our
     planet)
       The US and Brittain have made a secret treaty agreement, with the
     aliens, in exchange for technology, and so-called "recon" missions,
     during times of human conflict. Aliens agree to stay out of human
     wars, and not to interfere with society. Also, there are special
     "teams" which are designated to, eradicate, discredit, harass and
     trump-up charges to control those humans which experience contacts or
     visitations from aliens, including also those who make verifyable
     sightings.
       The alien crafts have been more-or-less copied by top scientific
     experts, and are functional. The Awareness Program (mentioned before)
     was desighned to inform the public gradually, in a systematic, logical
     way. This is a joint governmental-and-alien program. It is coupled
     with the increased alien-human abductions and contacts. If done
     correctly there will be little or no panic or resistance. The worlds
     governments will retain control, avoiding chaos.
       In some of the reports it was noted that our children were mentioned
     as some of the cargo on the alien space crafts. There are over a
     million missing children every year in the US alone. The aliens take
     about 2,200 a year from the US and other contries combined. The rest
     of the children are due to mankinds Darkside.
       The children are used in several ways; Biological, to educate and
     return; Experimentation, disease study, the same as adults.
       Implants are being used on the humans taken abord the alien crafts
     and returned. Some of these implants are microscopic in size,(and
     smaller) which influence the growth function and learning
     capeabilities of the individuals.

       The A>P> (Awareness Program) calls for the funding of movies,
     television series and specials, and books. These will be about
     freindly alien contacts.
      There are disks, triangles and oblong-shaped craft. They range from
     30 ft, for the smaller recon disc, to over 730 ft, for the larger
     mother disc,(or flying saucers,if you will...) The triangle shaped
     craft are 210 ft. in diameter. The oblong shaped craft is the really
     big one of the 3. The only one ever found by the military was in the
     late 60's; it measured 1,100 ft. long with a circumference of 310 ft.
     There is some noise made, however, all craft are almost totally
     silent.

             In closing, these are my words; (John Winston)  "These people
     which were picked up at the Roswell are not my first choice of space
     peoples to cooperate with.
     Ike turned down my freind, Valient Thor, from Venus, so I guess I will
     have to work with the space peoples our government has chosen."
       As the uneducated person who cussed all the time was sent to england
     to be educated and saw a group of bow-legged cowboys for the first
     time, I'll leave you with this saying;
     "Low and behold what fools are these who wear their legs in
     parentheses."


     this is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don. Don
     is not me.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11412 alt.alien.visitors:8767
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 18:21:01 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 253

     Subject: Newage and ESP.
     Part 5.
                         My Friend  Harv.
             Back during the first few years that I had been in this work I
     was listening to a tape recording of  a lecture by a man called Dr.
     Halsey.  Mr. Halsey was a nephew of the Admiral "Bull" Halsey who was
     famous in the U. S. Navy during World War II.  Dr. Halsey had been a
     very educated man who had spent a great  deal of his time
     investigating flying saucers.  On a plane trip between two states, on
     a regular flight, his plane had come up missing and has never been
     seen by any one on Earth again.
             On this tape recording he was talking about places a person
     could go into the inside of the Earth and a few more things but he
     mentioned in a very as matter of fact way that there were two pyramids
     in Calif.  One of these was on the north fork of the American River
     near Snakehead Point, near Auburn, Calif.  This place was considered
     to be haunted by the Indians of the area.  They also considered that a
     person would become dizzy if he or she decided to climb it and would
     never make it to the top.  That's all the information that I had to
     start with.  No mention was made of where the second pyramid was
     located except maybe to say that it was located near Lone Pine, Calif.
     So that's all the information that I had to start with.
             I felt that it was important for me to find these places so I
     took a trip over to the first pyramid area to see what could be found.
             When getting to a place called Gold Run, Calif.  between
     Auburn and Reno, Nevada, I decided to turn off the road and asked the
     local people if they knew where a pyramid was around that area.  They
     really gave me a look like I was crazy and didn't have  any
     information about it.  After talking with them I took a road down
     towards the river and finally got to a spot where the north fork of
     the American River could be seen.
             After wondering how to get down to the river, which was down
     in the bottom of a canyon, I met a fisherman coming  up the hill.  He
     informed me how hard it was  to get down the hill so I decided not to
     try to make it down the hill.  Finally a man showed up in a pickup and
     I told him what the problem was.  He said the had a geological survey
     map of the area and proceeded to try to find Snakehead Point on his
     map because he had never heard of it.  Sure enough he found the place
     and he was able to point it out to us right down the canyon about a
     mile and one half to the west of where we were.   I then drove a
     little bit down the road and looked right nearly straight down the
     canyon towards it.  Snakehead Point is a small hill (about 120 feet
     tall that sits near the bottom of the canyon on the south side of the
     river) and is covered by trees and dirt to a depth of about 50 feet.
             Time was getting pretty late and I decided to go back home.  A
     few months later I tried it again, this time taking a tall, slender
     young man, about 21 years old, who was in good physical shape.  I told
     him all I knew about the subject so we started down the side of the
     mountain on the north side of the canyon.  This man hadn't been taught
     much about ESP but I decided to take along an Ouiji board, box and
     all.  That really looked funny, going hiking with an Ouiji board but I
     wanted to make contact with the spiritual entities that might be
     inside the pyramid if it was at all possible.
             We finally got down the hill and just needed to cross the
     river and climb Snakehead Point.  We got to looking at the river and
     thought that it sure did look high.  The river was running pretty fast
     so we decided not to cross at that time.  We sat down on a large rock
     and set up the Ouiji board for operation.  I then gave the young man a
     quick instruction course in operating an Ouiji board and we both
     started using the board to communicate with the spiritual
     intelligences that were inside the pyramid just across the river.  The
     first question I asked was, "Is anybody here that we can talk to"?
     The indicator of the board moved very fast over to no.  I then thought
     that if there is nobody here then you sure used a lot of energy as say
     no.  Next I asked if it or he would help give us information about the
     pyramid.  I then was hit by a large amount of force that caused me to
     get a very bad headache.  It was similar to the thought forms of
     spirits that are used to kill people if they try to break into a tomb
     or pyramid over in Egypt.  All of this made me pretty mad so I
     demanded that the spirit get off the line (off the Ouiji board and put
     on my guardian angel, the good type spirit that was always with me).
     From then on I got good information and found out that the pyramid was
     thousands of years old and a few more things that didn't seem very
     significant.  The young man and I then decided to go back home.  On
     our way out we wound up just climbing straight up the canyon because
     we didn't see any trails going the way we were trying to go.   On the
     way up the young man and I nearly pasted out due to exhaustion
     although we were both in pretty good shape.  We finally got out of the
     area and were started home when my old second car (work car) that I
     was using, developed a trouble in the generator.  We stopped at a
     small filling station that also had a bar on one side.  While I was
     working on the car  and the young man went inside the station, a lady
     came staggering down the street and wanted to know what I was doing
     and after I had explained to her what I was doing she wanted to know
     what I was doing that day.  Well I thought she was being pretty nosey
     but due to the fact that she had been drinking quite a bit and was
     feeling no pain I proceeded to continue to work on my car while she
     was looking over my shoulder taking it all in.  It was quite a slight,
     me working on  my car, fairly dirty, with the well dressed drunk lady
     drinking in all of the things that I had been doing that day.  When I
     got to the part about the pyramid she said that she was familiar with
     it and her husband had gone into some of these  areas to take pictures
     of the paintings on the walls etc., etc.  She was really telling me
     all about it and referred me to a man that was working as a bar tender
     over in Auburn, Calif. that owns the land that these caves were on.
     We also found out that we had attempted to hike down through an area
     that was so filled with rattlesnakes that it a name to that effect.  I
     had noticed movements in the bushes from time to time about 30 feet
     away but didn't give it too much thought.  We also found out that the
     river was at flood stage and two people had been drown during that
     week on the same river.  We were through for the time being, picked up
     a little more information and went home.
             On the next trip and you must be wondering where  I get all of
     this energy, I took my whole family, one wife and four boys.  We
     talked with some people in Auburn and they told us how to get out
     there, then later we drove out to the area.  It's out past Forest
     Hills, Calif. down on the end of a gravel road then you go past a
     locked gate and it's 3 or 4 miles down a small road to the river.  I
     hitched a ride with a group of trail bike riders down to the bottom of
     the hill.  There we met the bartender and he took us around in his
     jeep but we found that we were about 7 miles too far east (towards
     Lake Tahoe) to get to Snakehead Point.  While we were  waiting we
     found out that this area was very good for hunting bear.  There was a
     man near our car that had lost 5 dogs because they got lost hunting
     bear.  That  just gives you an idea of the terrain.  We had a lot of
     fun seeing all of  the scenery, the fish in the river and decided to
     call it quits for that trip.
             Now that  I've just about worn you out by explaining all of
     this to you I'm going to explain the fourth trip on which we find
     what we think is the pyramid.  This time we decided  that we really
     had it all figured out.  We had borrowed a motorcycle ( a 125 cc
     Gerilli) and figured  we'd just ride down to the pyramid.  That didn't
     exactly turn out to be true.  It turned out that the motorcycle
     wouldn't even make it down the hill.  It was a road bike with high
     speed gearing and we needed a trail bike with low speed, high power
     gearing.  After going about 100 yards we left the motorcycle and
     continued on foot.  The trail was made for mules and horses.  It was
     really steep and had places that were so slippery that you couldn't
     stand up on your two feet but had to use your hands also.  You could
     turn your feet and body sideways to go up it like a skier goes up a
     hill with skies.
             We finally got around a bend in the trail so we could see
     Snakehead Point but we were still about one half mile away.  When we
     got to the bottom we saw an old miners cabin and there was a man
     standing out in the front yard with just his drawers on, washing some
     of the clothes that he had been wearing.  I struck up a conversation
     with him and he was very talkative but continued with his washing. The
     first question was to try to find out  where Snakehead Point was
     situated.  He said that some people think that it is the peak just
     across the river but most of them say it's right there.  He then
     pointed to it.  We were about 50 yards from the side of it.  I asked
     him if he was afraid to live and work around it because some people
     think its haunted.  He then said "Oh , I don't know that it's haunted
     unless you might count the 22 chinese that were killed back in the
     1800's".  During that time there was a white man's company owned by a
     group of Englishmen who were using about 2,000 chinese laborers to
     mine for gold up here.  They had caused these workers to cut out a
     part of the hill just between Snakehead  Point and the side of  the
     canyon.  They kept cutting out into the side of the hill and not using
     proper  safety methods,  when the side of the hill came down upon
     them. It buried about 22 to 27 of them.  They had a very large sluch
     box in there and there is rumor that it was just about ready to be
     emptied when the hill came down on them.  They believe that the sluch
     box contained about 30,000 dollars worth of gold at the gold prices of
     that time.  I'm trying to find the sluch box and have been digging to
     find it.  I've not found  it yet but have been following their
     trailing.  I've been on top of Snakehead Point before and you can
     still find equipment that the chinese left.
     It really spooked them.  Its as if they suddenly just left, leaving
     everything behind.
             Next I asked the man if he had ever noticed any feeling of
     energy coming from the top of the pyramid because I had heard that
     people could take a watch on top of this pyramid and it would stop and
     also a compass would be deflected in the wrong direction while on top
     of this area.   He said that he had been up there before looking for
     some of the old chinese equipment and his economical pocket watch
     didn't loose any time.  He also mentioned that there had been other
     people in that same area looking for the pyramid just like myself.
             After talking with him we went over to Snakehead Point and
     attempted to climb it but after a little while we decided we'd better
     leave.  It looks like a pyramid covered by about 50 feet of soil, rock
     and trees.  There is an old Indian story that says that if you attempt
     to climb the pyramid you'll get dizzy and not be able to get to the
     top.
             My boys got up the hill and back to the car  pretty fast but
     it took me 3 hours to walk the 5 miles  up the trail.  It was 9 or 10
     o'clock at  night when I finally go out.
             Now for the good part.  After getting home there  was a man
     that called me up.  It turned out to be Harv (and that is not his real
     name).  I had never met him before in this lifetime.  He had been
     working as a skin diver running his gold dredge.  He'd work for 3
     months on the North Fork of the American River running his gold dredge
     then  fool around playing golf for the rest of the year.  He really
     had a  good thing going for himself.  On a previous year he had been
     running his dredge and had about 25 lbs. of  gold (about $25,000
     worth) on his dredge when the drainage dam was suddenly opened and it
     caused a large wave of water  to come down on his dredge nearly
     turning over the dredge and scattering the gold all over the bottom of
     the river.  Harv is made of pretty tough stuff so he moved to another
     place and started  again.  This time he had to clean it out (the rocks
     that is).  The concentration of gold then got so thick that he was
     afraid to run it through his dredge, so he just started bringing it up
     in a plastic bucket and then panning it out with a regular gold pan.
     It was so thick with gold that it was running a thousand dollars a
     bucketfull. When the crack got down to about 3 inches wide he left the
     area.. He came out with $25,00 worth of gold.
             Harv was was very  interested  in  the pyramid  and he had
     found out about me from the bartender in Auburn and had come over to
     talk to me about it.  It seems that Harv likes to hear about some
     story then go check it out.  A lot of times he is successful.  On one
     occasion that he told me about, he was setting in a bar talking to a
     person (and don't think that I spend much time in bars, I don't drink
     intoxicating beverages, it's just that some of my friends spend a
     little time in them) that this person gave him the following story;  A
     few years back I married an Indian lady that is the daughter of a
     Mayan chief down in Mexico.  There is a legend or story that during
     the time that the Spanish soldiers were in Mexico back during the time
     of the conquistadors, the soldiers had the Indians as slaves.  They
     made the Indians mine their own silver and then they would ship the
     silver back to Spain to the King and Queen.  Some of the soldiers
     decided, why should they send it all back?  They would just bury part
     of it in a safe place and come back for it later.  The only thing that
     went wrong was that many of them never made it back because their
     ships were lost in storms at sea.  The story was that the silver was
     buried in a certain water well about 22 feet down in the well.  Harv
     said to the man "Let's go get it" and a short time later they were on
     their way.
             When they got down to Mexico the Mexican government was
     contacted, large digging equipment was obtained and even Mexican
     soldiers with guns were all ready.  Harv went down into the well at
     the proper depth but nothing was to be found.  He then asked for them
     to send down his metal detector.  He projected it throughout the area
     and found that there was a large amount of metal behind one of the
     walls.  He then broke through the false walls and  the silver was
     there just as the legend said.
             The Mexican government got one half and the Mayan chief got
     one half.  Of that one half, one eighth was given to Harv's friend and
     one eight to Harv.  Harv was able to take it easy for another year.
             Then Harv said to me "That's not all, there is another part of
     the legend that there is a place on the same ranch that has 3 or more
     times that much silver on it but nobody knows where it is.  The second
     treasure of silver is still down there.
             Later on Harv and I became even closer friends.  I had been
     working with him for a while and got the idea that it would be a good
     idea  if I could get a guardian spirit that would guide him to find
     treasure.  I was rather reluctant to bring up the subject because I
     didn't know how much Harv knew about all of that sort of stuff.
     Sometimes you may try to explain that to people and they'll just think
     your crazy.  I still had this drive to do it so I started to
     explaining it to him in this way I'm going to try to explain something
     to you that's pretty difficult to explain but maybe it'll help you in
     your search for gold and etc.  Some people who have turned out to be
     great successes in the world have paid attention to certain hunches
     and ideas that come into their minds.  They sort of hear a still small
     voice within that tells them what to do.  It's possible to  develop
     this ability to where it can be used all of the time.  Some people
     refer to it as a guardian angel, sort of a spirit that goes with you
     and helps you out.  The next time your going looking for gold on the
     river, just point you finger out over the river and let your body turn
     around of it's own accord and you may be surprised.  You may find that
     your finger will point to a certain place and you get a feeling to dig
     in a special place.
          That's all for now. End of part 5. John F. Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!silver.ucs.indiana.edu!foxd
From: [e-mail] (daniel fox)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 04:49:28 GMT
Lines: 9

Today I got the copy of the K-2 transmission and listened very carefully to
it.  It is definitely the work of new age musicians.  The sounds recorded have
an echo effect used all through the tape.  The same sound effects are used
at periodic intervals for long stretches of the tape.  There is little to
indicate a high information content, but a lot to indicate music.  Maybe it's
alien new age musicians.

                                             Daniel B. Fox
                                             KF9ET
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (daniel fox)
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 05:01:23 GMT
Lines: 8

By the very nature of a coverup you can only point to cases were the coverup
was not completely successful.  A successful coverup would never be pointed
to as an example of a successful coverup.

                                       Daniel B. Fox
                                       KF9ET
.standard disclaimer

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nwnexus!seanews!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Subject: Re: Personal Experience (was Re: Crop Circles?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Own Ship...
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 00:42:08 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater) writes:
>
> No matter what the whole story is I still just want my own ship - just
> like the one I saw one night. No lights, no sounds... just gliding thru
> the night following the power lines... leaving me lying in bed, wide
> awake, feeling scared out of my wits.
>
     So do I.  Get's boring just reading about other planets and looking at
a few pictures.  Would much prefer to go explore the wonders of the universe
in person.  Not have to wait to be visited, instead go visiting.

     The limitations of being a human stuck on this planet are frustrating.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!a3810
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 07:49:47 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 28

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Posted: 23 Aug 92 00:53:35 GMT
>
> Org.  : The Portal System (TM)
>
> Dear People: Well it looks like Lenard, Bear, Jeramy and RA have been
> trying to eat me up as usual. The magazine referred to is the tabloid
> Magazine called Sun.
> John Winston.
> ok


Do whatever you want, the famous man said, as long as you spell my name right.
In this case you didn't.

Another thing you might consider avoiding is leaving messages that merely say
"I have nothing to say."  Most of us already know that.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just when you thought|         ==> [e-mail] <==
it was safe...       | That's SUNNY Vancouver, British Columbia, *CANADA*!!
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
He's BACK! The Car,  | George: Blackadder!  What time is it!?
The Cat, The Lunatic,| Edmund: Thre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!mips!swrinde!news.dell.com!uudell!bigtex!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!news2me.ebay.sun.com!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!news
From: D. Lurker
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and an open letter to John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:30:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: noone@all
Organization: Pick a 3 letter agency, any 3 letter agency
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: framemaker.ebay.sun.com


    Sorry to bother you all.  I've been reading this group for a while now and have noticed that there are a few posters, I won't mention any names, ahem, John Winston, ahem, that must have just gotten off the great space ark.
    It is one thing to believe that there may be intelligent life somewhere in the universe, but really, to infer that the Sun is a planet and the radiation given off is caused by the flatulence of some all-powerful cosmic slug interacting with an atmosphere???
    John, it works something like this.  In the real world, most people have unusual beliefs, thoughts and ideas.  It's good to talk about them, but you need to find the proper audience. I'm sure there are any number of psychiatrists that would delight in speaking with you on a long term basis, under restrain most likely.
    Please don't take this personally, I enjoy thought provoking material, but having to wade through page after page of material that the National Enquirer probably wouldn't print is getting to be too much.  Thank you and good night.





Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible And Ufos (can You Help?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 04:59:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 19


 > I think the book you're looking for is "The Bible and Flying Saucers"
 > by Barry Downing.  I have it in paperback, but there is another with a
 > similar title which I have in my collection (I can't remember the
 > author's name offhand).  There are, of course, a number of books which
 > deal in the Von Daankien stuff, but Downing's book is a theological
 > discussion of ET's, the Bible and the implications of contact, and
 > predated Von Daaniken's fluff by several years.

I have a list of available books through ParaNet for the person who originally
requested this.  Just email me at [e-mail] and I will send it to
you.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Anonymous posting to a.a.v.???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 14:02:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 20

I don't believe it, the first anonymous post to a.a.v., at least that
I have noticed.

>alt.alien.visitors #8781 (5 more)                    |-(1)+-(1)
>From: D. Lurker                                      |    \-(1)--(1)--(1)--(1)-
>[2] Re: Ley Lines and an open letter to John         |-(1)+-(1)--[2]
>+   Winston                                          |    |-(1)--(1)
>Date: Fri Aug 21 14:30:17 PDT 1992                   |    |-(1)
>Organization: Pick a 3 letter agency, any 3          |    \-(1)
>+             letter agency
>Lines: 10
>NNTP-Posting-Host: framemaker.ebay.sun.com

Of course, without even digging, that "framemaker.ebay.sun.com" is
a bit of a giveaway. :^)


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 08:17:11 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13

Dear Astral Travellers: Now for a report on the OOBE train. The person
we call E came by and picked up D. and she was actually waiting and ready.
E. also said that a very adept oriental, maybe chinese lady is now with
us sort of running the show. Something was done in regard to a 5 pointed
star on the floor. I was either asleep (someone couldn't get their eyes
open which could have been me). Kumar was definently aware of my presence
but couldn't get going astrally. D. is trying to get a class started to
teach all of this type of information in a large college in the NE part
of the US. She is wondering if Kumar also goes to that college. The name
of the college starts with Penn. I also had a person come into one of
my dreams this last week. So it looks good. I had some pictures taken
and will try to contact Big Al. later.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Mikael Lonnroth)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Government documents, UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Ositech Oy
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ositech.fi

Is there any way to obtain government (the US) documents in electronical
form? Any archives? Especially I would be interested in documents concerning
sightings of UFOs.
--
[e-mail]
Georg M. Lnnroth
Espoo, Finland
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and an open letter to John Winston
Message-ID: <kt-n4z#[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:30:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> noone@all writes:
>
an atmosphere???
        John, it works something like this.  In the real world, most people
have
 unusual beliefs, thoughts and ideas.  It's good to talk about them, but you
nee
d to find the proper audience.>
>
I must point out the name of the group is alt.alien.VISITORS, so blow it
out your ear. JW has every right to post his stuff here.

Just because your "reality" is much too "in a 3 dimensional rut" to
imagine the posibility of life in other dimensional forms, or that
does not mind a few million degrees farenhieght, or even may not be of
a material form as we usually think of life, does not mean that we
can define the rest of the universe FOR the rest of the universe and
proclaim all else other than our own form NON-LIFE.

And that goes for the possibility of life within planets as well, perhaps
even our own. But for those that have limited imagination, this
probably falls on deaf ears...
Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: PROJECT BLUE BOOK IN ASCII FORMAT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 18:41:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Garland O Burton) writes:
>where can I, JOE CITIZEN, get my hands on the project bluebook papers?

Any Federal Repository which has copies of National Archives material (there
are various scattered around the country). Or, you can go to the National
Archives in Washington, DC. They're on microfilm, like the Census records
that genealogists use.


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:19:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[An awful lot of silliness deleted]
>     Hatton says this could all happen on July 25, l992 to the end of July
>     1992.  That's all for now. John F. Winston.

Guess Hatonn blew it.  Like I'm really surprised.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:20:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Everybody: You'll notice that some of the things mentioned in the
                                    ^^^^
>last posting didn't happen.
>John Winston.

John - did _any_ of them happen?

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 1992 18:39:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Rice University
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:


      (Much garbage deleted)

>                    ... This is all mentioned in the bible in the book of
>     Revelation.

         Don't blame this drivel on the Bible.  Revelation doesn't say
anything resembling this garbage!

>     Hatton says this could all happen on July 25, l992 to the end of July
>     1992.  That's all for now. John F. Winston.

Come on, John - you are making your earlier posts sound reasonable! :-)
                                         - Steve -
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:36:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(daniel fox) writes:
>By the very nature of a coverup you can only point to cases were the coverup
>was not completely successful.  A successful coverup would never be pointed
>to as an example of a successful coverup.

But are the Government and the Military capable of cover-up on such a grand
scale, over such a long period of time, and with the membership turnover
required by such a long-scale action?

You're positing that hundreds if not thousands of people have kept this secret
for more than four decades, all the while bringing new members into the
conspiracy, retiring others, and expanding and changing the orginal operation.

For them to cover up a single event for so long I could accept.  But to
continue to run it for so long without more than the odd annonymous or shady
defector, no physical evidence, and continued complete success, just boggles
the mind.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:42:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[...]
>     they say Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and
>     Pluto do have human life in their appropriate form (you notice
>     they didn't say they looked exactly like us especiallly).

Or are detectable by any of the NASA probes.  C'mon, John - at least give us
something halfway plausable.  Everything you've posted in the past few weeks
has not only been silly in the extreme, but is easily disprovable by the most
rudimentary study of science.  Give it a rest.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:45:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: Well it looks like Lenard, Bear, Jeramy and RA have been
>trying to eat me up as usual. The magazine referred to is the tabloid
>Magazine called Sun.
>John Winston.

John - why do you take anything found in this magazine, and others of its ilk,
seriously?  Do you have any reason other than 'they print articles that confirm
my pet theories' or 'I have poor judgement'?

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Vampire Hunter C)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 20:54:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
> Why, Gary, NOBODY is accusing you of being a "crazy artiste"
> OR a "Hollywierd" movie maker...Nobody at all.
>
> We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
> be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

From what little I've seen of Monsieur Stollman, he either deserves a
literary prize (assuming his postings are a con/prank) or a padded cell
and a steady supply or thorazine (assuming he IS being serious).

Right now, I don't know which.
--
                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
                  [e-mail]
            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Subject: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: What they are abducting people for.
Keywords: Greys, Hybrids
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:58:50 GMT
Lines: 80


At the beginning of the year, I posted an article under this subject
from the January 1992 issue of the "Voice of Astara". That excerpt
clarified that the Greys are coming here for our ultimate good, and
aren't here to invade or any such thing. Now, most are aware, that the
Greys have been taking samples of ova, semen, etc, during detainments
of humans, and have been creating a race of Hybrids. Well, for those
interested, here is a similar article, this time from the September
1992 issue of "Voice of Astara", pages 4 and 19, which describes the
purpose of this new race. I have included the text from this article
below verbatim:

---- Begin included message ----

Satsang with Dr. Earlyne - Creating a Superior Race

Q: You say the aliens are abducting for the purpose of encoding a
superior race. Look what happened when the Germans tried that. Please
explain why you think it's a good thing.

A: It's clear I am being misunderstood. Let me try to "paint a
picture" for you point by point.
     1) Aliens came ages ago and found life forms little better than
the apes. Their seed was artificially inserted to produce a better
life form. The seed was again inserted, again and again, each time
being forth a better form until the human race appeared as Neanderthal
Man.
     2) They came again - 30,000 years ago to artificially inseminate
these creatures until, almost overnight, there were homosapiens - much
like us - living side by side with inferior creatures.
     3) That is the present state of life forms on earth today:
superior intelligences, average intelligences and lower intelligences,
all sharing the earth.
     4) We are, then, offsprings of the alien. They are returning now
to their children of earth to artificially inseminate some of our
people to lift the *entire* human race to a higher level. They do not
plan to create one special race as the Germans did. They want to
uplift the *entire human* race.
     5) Not one single person has ever been abducted who did not give
his/her permission. They may be unaware of it - but under hypnosis
they will some day be aware of having consented either before coming
into incarnation or during some contact made *before* the abduction.
     6) What does this idea do to our ideas of immortality of the
soul? - Of Jesus? Of Mary? Of life after death? Of Buddha? Of
Mohammed? Well, perhaps it could help us know we *are* sons and
daughters of Gods or gods - on our way to perfection. Certainly those
beings whose "seeds" we share have divine souls. As offspring we too
must be firmly convinced that their presence among us doesn't destroy
our religious beliefs - but rather confirms them. After all Jesus was
conceived by the Holy Spirit and an earth mother - and we certainly
accept *His* immortality.
     7) It is *they* who want their presence to be gradually realized
by Earthians - not our government alone. They do not want to land and
come among us as the superior beings they are. They want to come among
us as Earthian children lifted to a higher level of intelligence able
to establish a better life for all of us - just as we parents hope our
children will help to create a better world.
     8) When I speak of these superior beings I do not refer to the
"grays" - these are humanized "computers" carrying out instructions of
the superior beings.
     9) We have reached a dangerous level in our progression in that
we have now learned to destroy the world. That's when Lemuria and
Atlantis fell. Our alien parents see the possibility of it happening
again on our planet. Their *second* reason for coming is to save some
portion of the human race if we are foolish enough to loose the
weapons of war or if greed destroys the atmosphere.
     10) Again and again, I promise you. Their coming is for our
ultimate good. If there is anything to be feared it is man's
inhumanity to man - and man's refusal to turn to God in prayer and
love.

---- End included message ----

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail]      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <27-n=1#[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 23:21:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29

[e-mail] (Vampire Hunter C) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
>> Why, Gary, NOBODY is accusing you of being a "crazy artiste"
>> OR a "Hollywierd" movie maker...Nobody at all.
>>
>> We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
>> be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

>From what little I've seen of Monsieur Stollman, he either deserves a
>literary prize (assuming his postings are a con/prank) or a padded cell
>and a steady supply or thorazine (assuming he IS being serious).

>Right now, I don't know which.
>--
>                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
>            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
>                  [e-mail]
>            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
*****
And what about if what I have been saying just happens, an option you
didn't consider, to be the truth...???

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Lance Franklin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:04:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: NC Microproducts, Inc.
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
}[e-mail] (Kev) writes:
}
}>             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
}>             spacecraft"
}>          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?
}
}    --Sure. That re-entry can be a real bitch, you know....  :-)

Nah...the real reason is:

   Mars Needs Women, and cigarettes to smoke afterwards.  They've been
   watching our TV transmissions for years, and figure it's part of the
   reproduction process.



Lance

--
Lance T. Franklin            +----------------------------------------------+
([e-mail])   | "You want I should bop you with this here    |
NC Microproducts, Inc.       |    Lollipop?!?"                 The Fat Fury |
Richardson, Texas            +----------------------------------------------+
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From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Keywords: Greys, Hybrids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:04:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 66

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:

>Satsang with Dr. Earlyne - Creating a Superior Race

>Q: You say the aliens are abducting for the purpose of encoding a
>superior race. Look what happened when the Germans tried that. Please
>explain why you think it's a good thing.

>A: It's clear I am being misunderstood. Let me try to "paint a
>picture" for you point by point.

i.e. "Let me rave on in meaningless, unsupported phrases".  Walter, no matter
how much you (or anyone else for that matter) posts on this subject, you
cannot escape the fact that saying something does NOT make it true.  The
material you posted is average pulp sci-fi at best, that anyone with a
typewriter and ten spare minutes can churn out.  Without facts that can be
checked independently, how do you expect to be taken seriously?  You expect
us to take you at your word that aliens have been uplifting us, yet where
is the proof?

If the aliens want to someday reveal themselves and they say "We have been
uplifting you for thousands of years", the skeptics of the day are going to
demand some proof that the aliens aren't pulling our leg.  Surely the aliens
realise this and have prepared for it?  If so, what is their proof?  If not,
then they've severely underestimated their "experiment".

>     4) We are, then, offsprings of the alien. They are returning now
>to their children of earth to artificially inseminate some of our
>people to lift the *entire* human race to a higher level. They do not
>plan to create one special race as the Germans did. They want to
>uplift the *entire human* race.

Nice of them to tell the *entire human* race about it, huh?  This whole
scenario looks like a blatant rip-off of a David Brin uplift novel.  The
difference being that in Brin's universe, the uplifted race is always working
side-by-side with the patron race (i.e. was aware of what was happening to
them), and had a chance, at certain points, to choose what their next stage
of uplift was to be.  We don't seem to get any say in the matter.  "Daddy is
always right: he may take you places you don't want to go, and do things to
you that you don't like, but it's for your own good".  Hmmm....

>     5) Not one single person has ever been abducted who did not give
>his/her permission. They may be unaware of it - but under hypnosis
>they will some day be aware of having consented either before coming
>into incarnation or during some contact made *before* the abduction.

"Miss, you had a deep-rooted desire to be raped, therefore we were justified
in carrying out your desire".

>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail]      |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
>-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
>|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

Walter, I'd like there to be other intelligent races besides our own, but no
amount of "believe me, what I say is true" will convince me.  Show me an alien
or a hybrid and I'll believe you.  Until then, try a little harder to make
up your sci-fi next time, huh?  This stuff is getting a little boring. :-)

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1992Aug23.1942
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 02:50:05 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> rogue@ccs
northeastern.edu (Free Radical) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[...]
>>     they say Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and
>>     Pluto do have human life in their appropriate form (you notice
>>     they didn't say they looked exactly like us especiallly).
>
>Or are detectable by any of the NASA probes.  C'mon, John - at least giv
 us
>something halfway plausable.  Everything you've posted in the past few w
eks
>has not only been silly in the extreme, but is easily disprovable by the
most
>rudimentary study of science.  Give it a rest.
>

HA!  I'vegotitI'vegotitI'vegotit!  I figured it out!  John's not using
*science*.  He's working from perceptions and what he's developed as his
belief system.  Same as us, really.

Big Al.  Somebody thought of this already, huh?



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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 20:25:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

     Part 6 NEWFESP.WRI.
          Then Harv took over the conversation.  You know John just the
     other day my friend begged me to go over and see a psychic lady that
     she had been going to for a long time.   I didn't know much what to
     say  to the lady but just gave  her my name and asked her what she
     could tell  me.  The lady then started telling me about my past, my
     problems and then spoke to her lady friend in the next room, Say, Hun
     come on in here I want you to meet a millionaire.  He is not a
     millionaire yet but he will be .  After  this went  on for a while the
     psychic lady who we'll call Eve told me that I had just got a new
     guardian angel.  My old guardian angel had been replaced by a new one
     that was really a  great one.  This spirit hadn't been guiding anyone
     for the last 20,000 years and it was a great honor for me to have him
     as my guide.  The guardian's name was long and consisted of three or
     more words but he  could be called Theo.  She said Theo would help me
     in my work.
          It looked like Harv was already on his way.  During the next  few
     years Harv went through a rough training period.  The first part of it
     started when he went to Costa Rica in search of gold.  He found quite
     a bit butt then he  was guided by Eve and Theo to go  to  Honduras.
     While  he was in Honduras he got permission to go on a gold miners
     claim  and keep all of  the gold he got with his dredge if he would
     just make a report of the places that he found gold to the  owners.
     In that way the  owners cold follow with large equipment and cleanup
     the gold.  He found quite a  bit of gold but finally  found platinum
     in another spot and as you may know platinum is more valuable than
     gold. This assayed out to be enough  to produce over a million dollars
     a day for  more than a year.  He was kept from the platinum at the
     present time  by a $12,000 bond that a person  has to put up before
     any mining  could be done and  also the  small matter of a war
     breaking out,  then a hurricane that  killed thousands of people (this
     was quite a few years ago).
          All of  this  didn't get Harv down.  During  this time that all
     of this  was happening I managed put Harv in  contact with another man
     that came upon the scene by the name of Joe. Joe is a scientist in his
     own right with a degree   in physics, sort of a modern day Aristole.
     Joe had spent about 7 years looking for gold and had a place in the
     desert  that  was supposed to have so much gold that you wouldn't
     believe me if I told you about.  Joe and Harv went out in the desert
     looking for that place and did quite a bit of digging.
          On one trip harv hired a dowser ( person who uses ESP to find
     gold, water, and etc.)  to  go with him into the desert.   Her had to
     pay this man a good amount  of  money to rum a forked stick (a water
     witch).  They got some good information that trip.  This  man who was
     the dowser was 91 years old and Harv was having to  take him over the
     rough roads in a 4 wheel drive vehicle with  the  heat over 100
     degrees.  One time he got stuck and he was really afraid  that  the
     old man was going to konk out on him.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,fido.ufo
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!aalpert
From: [e-mail] (Arnold Alpert)
Subject: 'official' documents...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 07:26:49 GMT
Lines: 9


Hello.  I was wondering if it was posible for anyone to E-Mail me whatever
'official-type' (Gov't., private organization...anything with some basis
in fact...) documents dealing with the subject of UFO's and their
existance.  I personaly have serious doubts as to their existance (Please
forgive me if I'm stepping on any toes) and want some reading material to
mull over.  T
Thanx for your help.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Observations at Pilot Peak
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 07:44:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 158


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 24 Aug 92   0:43:51

Our special thanks to John Pickens, who conducted an independent investigation
of the Phoenix Project's claims of an underground alien base in Northern
California.  As you will read, John's report clearly shows that the K2 report
is definitely questionable.


 * Forwarded from John Pickens, 205/300
 * Originally to Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 23 Aug 92 21:46:55

* Original: TO ... Michael Corbin of 1:104/428
* ReDirected Using ReDirect Version 1.00 (C)1989 David Nugent

REFLECTIONS ON THE K2 REPORT & OBSERVATIONS AT PILOT PEAK
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having read the Phoenix Project's K2 report and having visited the
Pilot Peak area I offer some of my impressions and observations.

Animal Sounds:  The K2 Report suggests there is curious lack of
animal sounds and indicated there is an unnatural quiet in the
area.

Having spent 2 nights in the immediate area in question I can say
there was nothing I observed, either by night or by day, to support
this contention.  The level of animal sounds was consistent with
what I have heard in other forested areas.


Animal Life:  The K2 report makes much of the fact that there was
an absence of animal life in the area (this additionally supported
by the claim of lack of animal sounds).  In particular the report
comments on the apparent absence of squirrels, chipmunks, rodents,
owls and birds flying over the area.

On my first night at the Pilot Peak area I spent the night at a
spot over looking the location of the "landing zones."  I had an
unobstructed view of the area.  I was there while the Moon was
still below the eastern horizon and I used a high-powered spotlight
to illuminate the area.  I saw no less than two (possibly three)
deer - one of which was very close by, if not on, one of the
"landing zones."  Throughout the night, owls could be heard
hooting.  During the day birds could be seen flitting about the
meadow that contained the "landing zones" and both squirrels and
chipmunks were easily seen.  At the very top of Pilot Peak there is
a lookout station which I explored.  There I found two exhausted
boxes of D-Con rodent killer and rodent droppings in the first and
second floors of the station - clearly evidence of rodents.
Another variety of rodent - bats - were seen in no small numbers
around the Pilot Peak area.

I will comment on the K2 report itself concerning their claim of
absence of animal life and animal sounds.  I found it a curious
contradiction that one of their observers (and I do not recall how
they identified him/her, it was perhaps Contact #2, but it was the
one who forgot their camera and had to come back the next day to
make photographs) indicated that there was a sighting of a UFO and
once it came into view all the animal noises ceased.  I have to
ask - if there was a curious and noteworthy lack of animal sounds
how could they cease?


Landing Zones:  Having seen the purported "landing zones"
personally, and in some cases having walked over them, I have to
say there seems to be a more prosaic explanation.  There was an
abundance of deer tracks throughout the area.  It is not
unreasonable to assume these are places where deer have rested.  I
found it odd that in the midst of the flattened grass there was, in
some instances, a variety of tall weed that was still standing,
unbent, in the area of flattened grass.  In addition, the "landing
zones" exhibited none of the swirling patterns associated with UFO
"nests" or the more recent crop circles.  Very low strangeness
index and certainly subject to more "Earthly" explanation than
landed craft.  I also found other, smaller, areas of flattened
grass which looked exactly like the purported "landing zones" but
which could clearly be discounted as such.


There are two other factors which weigh heavily against these areas
being "landing zones" which I will address next.


Camping Area:  Far from being the desolate area one might imagine
from reading the K2 report there is a camping area immediately
adjacent to the "landing zones."  To the southwest, and just behind
a moderately dense stand of trees, this camping area did not remain
unoccupied during the time of my visit.  On the first night there
were three carloads of people camping and on the second night there
was one family there.  The area of the "landing zones" is easily
seen from this camping area and access to the "landing zones" from
the camping area is immediate.  It is not the sort of area one
would choose if one wanted any sort of privacy.  In addition, the
area of the "landing zones" is clearly seen from the road which
passes nearby and the view from the road is unobstructed, save for
two small trees, for over a quarter mile of travel.


The Road:  The report mentions a road which passes the K2 site.
This is not the unused and long-forgotten road one would envision
from reading the K2 report.  Quite the contrary.  During the day
logging trucks, pick-up trucks, residents of the La Porte & Quincy
areas and campers travel this road.  While it will never resemble
rush hour, I was somewhat surprised at the number of vehicles
traveling that road as I thought we were well off the beaten track.

At night the traffic is much less active.  The first night there
was no traffic from 9 PM until 4:15 AM the next morning.  The
second night there was traffic on and off throughout the night.
Again, the meadow with the "landing zones" is clearly and
unmistakably visible from the road.


Forest Service:  The K2 report alludes to the Forest Service
personnel being mind-controlled minions of the Greys and says they
were questioned about their reasons for being there.  The report
paints a picture of the Forest Service watching their every move
and questioning their every action.  I found quite the opposite to
be the case.  Not once did the Forest Service exhibit the slightest
interest in what I was doing - even when I passed a Forest Service
truck on the mine road (a dirt road that leads right to the base of
the summit of Pilot Peak).  The only reaction I received from the
Forest Service was a smile and a wave as they drove past in their
trucks.

My observations cover a brief period of time - from the evening of
Wednesday, August 19 to the morning of Friday, August 21.  My
comments and observations can be verified and confirmed by Mr. Ed
Stuart who accompanied me to Pilot Peak.

As Ed has asked, "If the facts we CAN verify are false then are the
facts we CAN'T verify false?"  To which I must reply, not
necessarily, but they are certainly called into question.

Other lines of inquiry come to mind.  IS the corridor from the west
to Pilot Peak actually RADAR blind as put forth by the Phoenix
Project K2 report?  I'm sure any ATC person from the area can
answer that easily enough.

I also think a discussion with Forest Service personnel is in
order.  Are they aware that some of their members are being
presented as unwitting allies of the Greys?  Did they have occasion
to question the activities of a group of people investigating the
Pilot Peak area?  Has there ever been a female member of their
team, and if so, who was she?  And if so, what does she think of
the seduction for information scenario as described by the K2
report?

I think I'm ready to go ask some questions.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11432 alt.alien.visitors:8794 sci.skeptic:29437
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!walter!phelix!mdl
From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 11:44:44 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|>      Subject: People Evacuation Part 1.
|>              It seems that in the training that has been given to me
|>      in the past by the space people one of its purposes was to
|>      make me a person who would be aboard a craft and help others
|>      to be calm in case of a personnel evacuation.  I'm not saying
|>      there is going to be one at the present time but if there
|>      ever was one I'd be ready.
|>              If you will, please let me conduct you on an imaginary
|>      evacuation.  First of all you should hope to be invited to be
|>      taken aboard by some people that are from local planets for
|>      they say Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and
|>      Pluto do have human life in their appropriate form (you notice
|>      they didn't say they looked exactly like us especiallly).
|>              The Brotherhood has on call over 11,000,000 craft the
|>      last I heard.  They range from 30 foot shuttles (our word for
|>      it) to motherships 360 feet long.  One mother carries about 50
|>      shuttles.                              ^^^^^^



Whoa!  That sure is a BIG mother........



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Whitley Strieber
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 13:03:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>
>>  Talk is cheap (except on Usenet, Compuserve, etc).   But there are a
>>  LOT more people who have claimed personal contact with God, or other
>>  dieties and a LOT more books articles, and other written accounts
>>  of such contact than there are of contacts with "aliens".  Yet I still
>>  don't believe the former, so why should I believe the latter?   The
>>  bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.
>>
>>
>>---peter
>>
>  i gues the above attitudes of PLU's are why one of my favorite quotes is
>by an MD and Surgon, Dr. Greer, who is also the founder of CSETI:
>(paraphrased a little)
>
>"I deal with science everyday, life and death stuff. And I'm here to tell you
>UFO's and extraterrestrials are real; and just because Jon Q. Scientist says
>there not only means he's a SPIRITUAL CRETIN."


  Gee, what a compelling argument.   Why didn't I think of that?  I better
  go back to college and re-take all those scientific design and logic
  classes; I must have slept in on the day the professor told up how to
  bolster our argument with name-calling in lieu of actual evidence.

  (hey, it works for politicians)

---peter


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!bonfire!hinz
From: [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bonfire
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 11:14:38 GMT
Lines: 28

Travis R. Stone ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In Article #7088, Don Showen (or is it Showden? Sorry if
: I've gotten it wrong, Don) discusses Nicola Tesla's invention
: of AC power generation and other related things.
:
: He claimed to have gotten many of his ideas about electro-
: magnetism TELEPATHICALLY FROM "CERTAIN PIGEONS".
:
: Now, if THAT doesn't bespeak a certain degree of nuttiness
: in a person's mental makeup, then I don't know what DOES.

Yeah, but where are these pigeons now?  We could use their help.

Yes, Tesla was a crackpot.  He also happens to be behind 90 % of what you are
using right now.  Looking around me, I see very little electrical equipment
that doesn't have some of his work in it.  Marconi was using 29 of Telsa's
patents when he 'invented' wireless.  Tesla had demonstrated it
several YEARS earlier.

It's amazing how selective history is.  Or, are Tesla's works being covered up
due to their possible threats to the establishment (free power, etc?)

--

Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: more whittley streiber, 7731. Read 'So much rom..'
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 13:14:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Further to 7731
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>   Oh, ca-ca.   People Like Us (PLU's) so not apply any stricter standards
>>   of evidence to this topic than to any strong claim.  If someone claims
>>   that heavier-than-air machines can fly or pictures can be transmitted
>>   through thin air or razors placed under a pyramid become sharper or
>>   inexpensive exothermic cold nuclear fusion is possible then I expect
>>   evidence for these claims.
>blah blah
>>   don't believe the former, so why should I believe the latter?   The
>>   bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.
>OK No evidence for All Powerfull Entities etc, BUT their is concrete
>evidence for the existance of aliens and there is a good possibility
>of abductions etc. This evidence is all around you. Infact, one of
>the points in the Rio TalkFest was cutting down the ammount of
>evidence. The overcrowding of this planet by evidence and the destruction
>of the habitats of other type of evidence is a serious environmental
>problem. GET DA DRIFT?

  No.   Does anybody else "get da drift" of what this poster is
  talking about?    Does this mean that John Winston and Gary Stollman
  have company?   Why does this newsgroup seem to attract so many nut
  cases?


---peter




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11435 alt.alien.visitors:8798
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 06:20:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 163

     Part 7 NEWGESP.
     It seems like each one of  our group has a certain job to do.  To give
     an example it was Joe who first found the area where the gold would be
     found in the desert.   He was told  by Eve to stay away from the area
     and let Harv bring out the gold.  If he tried to develop and bring out
     the gold then he would die.  Joe didn't follow the suggestion given to
     the letter.  On one occasion he had gotten himself into near perfect
     physical condition.  He could do knee bends on one leg.  He could  do
     knee bends using both legs with a full  size man on his back, then
     right before he was going to go  on another search for the gold he
     lost the use of  one leg.  It just sort of went numb on him.  He could
     just barely walk for quite a while.  After getting over this he
     decided to try to find the gold again by himself.  On that trip he got
     heat prostration, and wondered around all night trying to find  his
     car.  He  sort of  went out of his mind. Joe is now  OK though.
     Everything is working out just perfect.

     While Harv was down in Costa Rica looking for gold with his dredge I
     attempted to  organize an ESP  mind group.   It was my theory that
     according to what I had read about the brain, the more people a person
     gets  to thinking about something happening the more it likely is to
     happen.  This group was encouraged to think positive thoughts towards
     Harv's work so that he would succeed.   It was rather  funny that when I
     asked Joe  to try to knock  out  some resistance that was holding up
     and causing Harv to not  succeed, Joe  started zeroing in on the
     interference and it turned out to hit me.  I was at work and it just
     about knocked me out.  I then  checked with Eve and she said that we
     were fighting against our higher selves or  God. She set  us strait
     so we decided not to do  that any more.

     I them asked Eve if she thought  it would be a good idea if I  tried
     to get an ESP group  to find some buried silver that was
     still  down in Old Mexico. She  then  told me that she could tell me,
     it  wouldn't be necessary to check with the group. I then said, "You
     mean to tell  me you can tell me where it is"?  Eve- that's right.
     J.W.- Well how  do  you  know this? Have  you gone down there before or did

     you  go down by astral travel?  Eve- I used to live down there in a
     previous life and I really love that  area. I also go  down there in
     the spirit form from time to time now.  J.W.- Where do you think the
     silver is any way?. Eve then proceeded to tell  me  where the silver
     was. When  I got this information I immediately sent it to  Harv and
     even faster he wrote me asking that I get him more information and be
     even more explicit.

     I then went back to Eve and being  very  careful not to make her mad
     at me  for bothering her about all of this I put forth  some more
     questions to her for more  details. This is how it went.  Eve-  You and
     Harv buried that garbage. J.W.-  What do you mean by that?  Eve-  You
     and Harv  were conquistadors (spanish solders) during a previous
     lifetime.  You were soldiers for Spain, came in and captured the
     Mayan  people, made slaves out of them and  made them mine their own
     silver so that  you could send it back  to Spain for the King and
     Queen.  You and Harv decided to bury part of the  silver and come back
     to get it later.  Harv figured that he'd come back in that same
     lifetime to dig up the silver but you John had a knowledge of the
     occult at that time and knew that you  would come back in a subsequent
     lifetime.  That is the reason why  that when you go past certain
     areas  like Mission Peak, near Fremont, Calif. you get a psychic alarm
     or a mental bell sort of rings in your mind to  make your remember all
     of this.  You knew that after the lifetime you spent as a conquistador
     (some years later) you would be interested in recovering the silver.
     The silver has been refined into nuggets (small lumps of metal) the
     size of filberts (a small nut just smaller than a pecan).  The silver
     is buried in a slanting hole that is 13 feet under the ground,
     extending for about 15 feet to the end of the hole which is 19 feet
     under the ground.
     After  getting this information I  found out that  in secular history
     it does explain how all of this business about the spanish soldiers
     did happen and many of the men were killed in ships while storms
     happened in certain places, especially off the coast of Florida.  So
     it appears that the second area contains three or more times as much
     as the first place (down in the well) so you can probably imagine how
     much that is and  the price of silver has gone up more than 5 times.
     In the future I hope to organize a group of people who are interested
     in making the world a better place.  Each person in the group would be
     given some credit cards (like a Visa or Bank of America cards), housing
     and all his or her personal needs. One of the projects would be to
     locate and sell this silver. Any volunteers?

                          My Guru's earlier teachings.

     When I was a teen-ager back in Texas I once went rabbit hunting with a
     man who owned some greyhounds.  When these dogs were chasing a rabbit
     and gaining on the rabbit they wouldn't bark but when they were
     loosing and the rabbit was out running them they would do a lot of
     barking.  When Merle was trying to explain something to me and he
     could see that he wasn't getting through to me, he would do a lot of
     crying.  To begin with he was the cryingest man I had ever seen. He
     once told me that during a previous life he had lived during the time
     that Jesus was on the Earth. His name at that time was Araron and he
     was a good friend of the family and actually saw the crucifixion.  I
     didn't believe that we have lived before.

     Merle had a lot of very interesting books.  a lot of the books he had
     were written by people who had been contacted by the space people.
     Thus they were called contactees.  Some of the books were written by
     the following men; George Adamski, Orfeo Angellucci, Daniel Fry,
     Betherum, Frank Stranges and many others.

     According to these books most of the UFO's were either bell shaped, or
     cigar shaped, in an infinite number of combinations and sizes. Most
     of the bell shaped craft with three round one half balls on the bottom
     are from the planet Venus. Yes their are people on Venus that are of a
     higher vibrational frequency than us. They can lower their frequency
     and walk among us unnoticed. Many times on their own planet they (the
     men) have page-boy type hair cuts and smooth faces but after they are
     here they start growing whiskers on their faces.

     Most of the cigar shaped craft are about 300 feet long but some are
     about 16 miles long.  These are star craft and never come very near a
     planet or land on it. Some of the craft are miniature planets and are
     about 300 miles square.

     While looking through a very small pamphlet I read the following
     story; There was a man once  that was picked up by a small scout craft
     (about 40 feet across) and then brought by that craft inside another
     larger craft that held several of these 40 feet craft. This large
     craft was called a mother craft. After getting on the mother craft the
     Earth man started talking to one of the people on the craft and was
     surprised that the space man could talk using the English language.
     He then asked the S.M. (space man) how he had learned English so well
     and was told that they had been observing Earth several years during
     this tour of duty. The Earthman  wondered why  people had  never seen
     this ship before or reported it in the press.  The spaceman said that
     their ship which was called  Michael had  been seen by many people on
     Earth and the encounters had been written up in many of the Holy
     Books of Earth. They were the pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire
     by  night that  went with  the children of Israel. During the day they
     have the ability to project moisture around their craft that makes
     their craft just look like a cloud.  At night the  light of  the
     craft can be made to look like a  fire.   Due to  their high
     technology the children of Israel thought they  were God.  They do
     the will  of the  creator so  they didn't discourage them in this
     idea.


     They were also the force  that opened the  Red Sea (sort of a force
     field) and allowed the  Israelites to  cross  over on dry land.  They
     caused the walls of Jericho to fall down.  On the  sides of Mount
     Siani they would talk with  Moses through a loud speaker system and
     it would be as loud as thunder.

     I read this story in his TV. repair shop during that time then came
     across a reprinting of  the same story in a book called UFOs-Key to
     Earth's Destiny by Winfield Brownell sold by the  Golden Sierra
     Printing, 10420 Mercury Drive, Grass Valley, Calif. 95945. This book
     also explains a lot of other things  about  UFOs (unidentified flying
     objects). I don't know whether they are still in business.

     Merle also told me about some people from other  planets  who come
     into his shop from time to time. Most of them were from Venus. One of
     them was a very attractive blond with beautiful eyes.  This lady was
     said to be a present body of Mary of  which their were two more  on
     Earth that didn't look  the same but were the same intelligence. This
     beautiful  lady once  gave my teacher a picture of herself and  Merle
     put it in his shirt pocket. She then asked him where he had put  the
     picture and of course he  couldn't find it. She said that she wouldn't
     have given him the picture if he was going  to loose  it.  Finally she
     told him  what she had  done and they had a good laugh over it. Most
     space people  do have a sense of humor.

     That's all for now. End of part 7. John F. Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 'official' documents...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 14:33:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 23

Hi,

    Hello.  I was wondering if it was posible for anyone to E-Mail
    me whatever 'official-type' ... documents.

   If you're looking for US government documents, you should probably
look for "Clear Intent", by Larry Fawcett and Barry Greenwood
(Prentice-Hall, 1984).  An excellent book from one of the major
FOIA-using groups in the UFO community -- CAUS.  I recommend it.

Hope this helps,

Charles

PS - I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people of my UFO
bibliography file, and to solicit contributions and book comments for
it.  The file can be ftp'd from paul.rutgers.edu, directory pub/ufo,
file bibliography.Z (compressed format).  The file is organized by
author, and also again by date-of-publication, and also includes
Keith Rowell's excellent bibliography file (which is also worked into
the above two parts).  Many titles have comments from various people
as to the value of the book; I would like any comments on any of the
books from anyone, and also additional books for inclusion.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11439 alt.alien.visitors:8800 sci.skeptic:29447
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 07:18:01 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

To all seekers of truth: You may have heard of Encounters of the third
kind but have you heard of the Encounters of the Gilled Kind. Yes sir
folks we have it right from an Italian's mouth so it's got to
be true. Joseph Bartone, an ex-fisherman from Naples was looking at a
pile of our finned friends when he heard a small voice of a female fish
by the name of Kayna. She violate the prime directive or code of silence
which is to not talk to humans and pleaded to be set free. Our human hero
did let her go but not before she promised to meet him by the sea the next
day. He did and she did and she showed up with about 12 of her friends
who also talked to him. Kayna named one of her offsprings Joseph in honor
of the occasion.  John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11441 alt.alien.visitors:8801 sci.skeptic:29448
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 07:49:13 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear People with guestions: Jeremy, RA, Big Al and Michael (not to be
confused with the angel). You say that you think that mother ship was
big, I show you big. There is one called The New Jerusalem that is
1500 miles square. It has some that work with it called the Seven
Cities of Shan that evacuate entire civilizations. The Star of Bethlehem
was not a star as we know stars. It was a light from an intelligently
directed object that led the people in their journey. The Wheel In A
Wheel seen by Ezekiel was space craft, but then that is just my humble
opinion. John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mips!mips!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 14:52:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 20


    [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer) writes:
    Governments come and go.  It's called democracy.  Now how
    could all these governments, who disagree violently with one
    another, all miraculously be in 100% agreement ALL THE TIME
    and cover everything up with 100% efficiency?


... this is inaccurate.  Political leadership of a country (for
instance the USA) changes, but generally officialdom (the "civil
service") does not.  Secrets get maintained, the mail still gets
delivered, the bombers still fly; the government still functions, and
generally functions in the same old way.  Political changes do not
translate into complete changes in government operation.  For example,
Jimmy Carter said during his 1976 campaign that he would release all
government UFO-related files if elected, and then didn't.  Why?  I
don't know.  Its not that there weren't things to release, as
post-Carter FOIA cases have amply shown.

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 08:12:47 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Ley Line Runners: RA (spelled with a big a that is), Steve and
Jeremy (be sure and spell that correctly). Mr. D. Luker if you will
please repost your statement again and limit you line length to about
75 letters or less. We user of Portal have a screen that only can
see that wide of information. I'm interested in what you have to say
but couldn't make it out. I thankful for Jeff's help. RA it appears
that you a becomihg a nice person and truely want to know the truth
if you can find it. A lot of the occult things seem silly and will
make you laugh when you first hear them.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 13:36:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <27-n=1#[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 10

According to [e-mail] (Gary Stollman):
>And what about if what I have been saying just happens, an option you
>didn't consider, to be the truth...???

Oh, I've considered that option.  It's just that I rejected it
immediately, with great laughter.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8805 alt.atheism:32723
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.atheism
Subject: ALL RIGHT STOP EMAILING ME, I KNOW!!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:24:42 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 21

ALL RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
I'm using my uni VAX account. I have explained this already...
For some reason, the local news manager has missed atleast two newsgroups
in making them all read only (from 1300). Obviously I can't ask the news manager
questions....
I'm lucky that these newsgroups interest me. Other students only care about
alt.evil, alt.sex.bestiality etc.

I cannot make email responses to individuals. We are allowed internal email
only.

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be dissappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message from Death Star
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 09:12:14 GMT
References: <ahn.713639999@ac>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 24

In article <ahn.713639999@ac>, [e-mail] (Darth Vader) writes:
> yo man.
> this is a test
> please ignore.
> -dv
Luke, ya prick, where are ya?!?!
Typical kid. Never around when there's work to be done.





Hey, I ain't typical....

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be dissappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 15:09:14 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>The transmission that was taped was probably someone using packet radio or
>some other type of telemetry.  I don't see how they can definitively identify
>the signal as an alien signal, or even speculate that it is.
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

No, Michael, it was not packet. I run a lot of vhf packet and some hf modes.
It was not packet, sstv, fax or any other mode that I have ever heard and
I am a quite experienced radio monitor. It sounded more to me like a
systhesizer. Actually, I think the first part was a recording of
a John Deere B with a leaky manifold gasket baling hay as recorded through
a hankerchief over the microphone. But, hey, who am it to question?

Gregg.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!pa.dec.com!oct17.dfe.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: re: John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 18:40:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 44


Sorry, John, but if you're going to continue to post pseudo-astronomical
nonsense, I'm going to continue to post why it is nonsense.

> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Ley Lines
>     Subject: The Photon Belt.
>     To paraphrase the information here it is in my own words: Our Earth
>     and solar system rotates around a central sun called Alclone.
>     It takes our solar system 24,000 years  to make it all the way
>     around the circle.  Our solar system is about to  enter a cosmic

Any such motion would be very easily measurable, not to mention the star
"Alclone" would be nearby and obvious. Precession, a real ~25,000 year wobble
of the Earth's spin axis, was known by the ancients. The distance to
"Alclone" can be very easily calculated from the laws of gravity, given the
period of the alleged orbit.

>     This photon belt or band was discovered by Earth people in 1961.

Reference, please. Or are you refering to the Van Allen radiation belts
around the Earth, which were discovered accidently by satellite around then?
Those are well known, understood, and have no chance whatsoever of blocking
out the Sun. If they could, much of the area around the equator would be in
perpetual darkness. That volume of space would pass as good vacuum here on
the ground.

>     The Pleiades were discovered that they  form a
>     system of which our sun is a part.

Again, reference? This is just plain false, unless we're talking in a very
general, galactic sense... in that case might as well say "the galaxy forms a
system of which Pleiades and the Sun are a part". The Pleiades didn't even
form until maybe a few tens of millions of years ago, a time when the Solar
System was already 4 billion years old.

<misc. ravings about shifting planets, Mayans, magnetics, Pleiades deleted>

>     Hatton says this could all happen on July 25, l992 to the end of July
>     1992.  That's all for now. John F. Winston.

Oops...

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 17:09:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 44


    [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
    But are the Government and the Military capable of cover-up on
    such a grand scale, over such a long period of time, and with
    the membership turnover required by such a long-scale action?

    You're positing that hundreds if not thousands of people have
    kept this secret for more than four decades, all the while
    bringing new members into the conspiracy, retiring others, and
    expanding and changing the orginal operation.

... you're presuming that the people keeping a secret do not wish to
keep it.  If secret-keepers are motivated to keep a thing secret, they
will.  Also, people who keep official secrets in some sense *want* to
do so: they have submitted to the intrusive and potentially
embarassing vetting process, and they have the self-satisfaction at
being trusted, valuable, and above all, on the "inside". FOIA actions
are carried out by various "outside" people all the time, precisely
because there are many, many secrets that do not get out.

   You also forgetting that secrecy oaths do not expire (ever), and
carry extremely stiff penalties.

    For them to cover up a single event for so long I could
    accept.  But to continue to run it for so long without more
    than the odd annonymous or shady defector, no physical
    evidence, and continued complete success, just boggles the
    mind.

   Not really.  Warplans (the work of dozens, even hundreds of people)
are kept secret, often long after their usefulness is gone.  For
instance, the "Dropshot" warplans were kept secret for 28 years
without a single leak, until declassified in 1977.  (This plan is
detailed in Anthony Cave Brown's 1978 book "Dropshot".)  The reason
for secrecy was apparent to everyone who knew of the three-volume
opus, and so it didn't get out.  Secrets concerning British/US
pre-WWII relationships (in which the US saw to it that British gold
reserves were very low indeed before lend-lease began, to ensure a
freer US hand after the war -- see Clive Pontings' "1940: myth and
reality") didn't become public for over 40 years (mostly because of
the British embarassment about being outmaneuvered like that.)  The
"Ultra" project remained secret for a very long time too.

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu!wb9omc
From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 17:01:39 GMT
Lines: 93

[e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:


>Yes, Tesla was a crackpot.  He also happens to be behind 90 % of what you are
>using right now.  Looking around me, I see very little electrical equipment
>that doesn't have some of his work in it.  Marconi was using 29 of Telsa's
>patents when he 'invented' wireless.  Tesla had demonstrated it
>several YEARS earlier.

>It's amazing how selective history is.  Or, are Tesla's works being covered up
>due to their possible threats to the establishment (free power, etc?)

    Tesla got fucked at the proverbial used car lot.

    In point of fact, Tesla had the essentials of wireless in
about 1895, several years before Marconi.  If memory serves correctly,
Tesla's court case went to the Supreme Court in 1943 - they upheld that
indeed Tesla had the superior claim to patent rights.

    Funny that the history books still refer to Marconi as the
"father of the wireless".  Bullshit.

    Aside from that, digging into the Tesla saga a bit further,
we also find that our old buddy Tom Edison was a crook, a slimebag and
a thief as well!

    Seems that Edison had built these nasty DC generating plants
up at Niagra Falls.  Said plants were less than reliable and they were
highly inefficient, to boot.

    Backpedaling a bit, one Nikola Tesla had been in school in
what is or was Yugoslavia, me thinks.  As part of his work he essentially
invented the 120 volt 60 cycle AC equipment we know and love (??)
today.  His profs all told him he was full of shit!  Tesla brought these
ideas to the US....and went to work for Edison, who told him he was
full of shit too - keep in mind that ol Tom had a vested interest in
DC power transmission.

    Tesla quit and found a fellow by the name of Westinghouse.  Ring
any bells?

    Well, Westinghouse was interested enough, and perhaps visionary
enough (or just plain greddy enough) to fund Tesla's work on AC
machinery.  Eventually, they butted up against Edison, and WW3 nearly
started!  Edison resorted to outright lies and every dirty trick in
the book to prevent AC from ever seeing the light of day.  Here's
the most notable example:

    Edison hired some folks to go around the country with some AC
apparatus.  They'd take big hunks of red meat, attach it to the
apparatus and then throw the switch.  The resulting frying, sizzling,
etc. display scared the hell out of those watching.  Edison referred
to the effect as having been "Westinghoused".

    However back in Niagra Falls cooler heads prevailed.  Westinghouse
finally got to install some of Tesla's AC generators which were proven
to be superior.  It rather spread from there.  After a while, Edison
was out of a job in the power generating industry.

    Stick to lightbulbs, Tommy.....   :-)

    Over the years Tesla came up with some pretty wierd ideas.
He also invented some pretty neat stuff.  He had what were essentially
"radio-controlled" boats which were displayed, I think, at the Chicago
exposition in the late 1800's, 189x....don't recall the year.

    Tesla built equipment that was much improved over the Marconi stuff
in the early days of wireless.  His list of patents was phenomenal.

    He *also* was working on weapons, possibly particle beam, maybe
other things.  When he died, the FBI snagged much of his work - the
stuff was placed in gov't hands with a high classification on it
that has remained (as far as I know) to this day.  What is in those
files, I don't know, other than it was known that he was working on
some kind of beamed weapons.

    Tesla's biggest failure was his own big mouth.  He promised a
lot of things that he couldn't deliver.  Sometimes it was due to grandiose
scheming which led to his funds drying up for more rational projects.

    His work in high-power radio broadcasting never reached
it's full conclusion for these very reasons, and it is a shame - his work
had (if the EE's amongst us will pardon the pun) tremendous
potential.

    My source for a lot of this is a book by Margaret Cheney -
"Tesla: Man out of Time".  I strongly encourage anyone to read this
book.  If nothing else, it offers a prime example of how vested
financial interests will conspire, lie, cheat and steal to protect
themselves.

Duane

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 17:23:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:
|
| It's amazing how selective history is.  Or, are Tesla's works being covered up
| due to their possible threats to the establishment (free power, etc?)
|
[ ... ]

    I think you've hit a point.  From what I understand, in the history
    of Nicola Telsa, after he died, the US Govt confiscated several devices
    and plans that he was working on.  Supposedly these were a significant
    threat to the establishment.  There are rumors about what said plans
    and devices included, but nothing substantial thus far, and I suspect
    that we'll neither see nor hear about them... ever.

    The sad thing, too, is that most people (or 'mad' scientists) who
    work on such projects, and get found out by the govt, usually end
    up with some 'problems'.  I wager private industry, such as the oil
    and gasoline companies, would be apt to hire 'trouble' if they knew
    someone were successful in creating a free-energy/substitute-for-oil
    device.  There were 2 (maybe 3) incidents where a device was made
    to significantly increase the mileage of gasoline.  Exxon, and another
    company at separate times, bought these plans from the scientist(s)
    for a significant amount of money and under the condition they would
    shut-up; the implications are obvious.

    I also 'heard' that some really 'mad' scientists have been tied to
    tables and thrown in rivers for their inventions... namely compliments
    of Uncle Sam.

    Who knows... it's weird.

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Latest NAICCR info on crop circles
Summary: Latest NAICCR list of crop circles and UGMs
Keywords: north america, crop circles, NAICCR
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 19:14:53 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Lines: 141


       1992 North American Crop Circles and/or UGMs
           Reported to NAICCR as of 24 August 1992

920426    Jonesboro, Georgia
-  a "formation" of crop circles, "exactly" like those found in
1991 in the same location, was discovered.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

9204??           , New Hampshire
-  UGMs were found following a small local flap of UFO reports.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

920506    near Edmonton, Alberta
-  a "space cookie" UGM was discovered in a meadow.  It is a
perfect circle, 6 metres in diameter. Its depth varies from 5 cm
to 31 cm.  Grass is growing straight up both inside and outside
the circle.  No tracks were found leading to the area.  The UGM
is not a sinkhole.
Source: Gordon Kijek

920525    Limerick, Pennsylvania
-  at least 12 "matted down" areas were found in a wheatfield north of
Philadelphia.  Three were circles about five feet in diameter, arranged
in a triangle.  One feature was "T-shaped".  Soil samples taken by a UFO
investigator "showed no irregularities".  Geiger counter readings were
also normal.  Although a hoax was suspected by the UFO investigator,
the owner of the field believes that the UGMs were caused by lodging,
wind and fertilizer damage, and that "It happens every year".
Source: Steve Bernheisel on FIDONET; UFO Newsclipping Service #275

920627    Raeford, North Carolina
-  a circle of flattened grass was found in a hay field following
a CE2 UFO sighting.  A loud noise, "like a freight train", was
heard, and two witnesses ran to look out their front door.  A
object "the size of a swimming pool", "like orange windows lla
around it", was in a field about 300 feet away from their house.
When they went to call other witnesses, the object disappeared.
Source: Patrick Kirol on FIDONET

9206??               , Massachusetts
-  a small area of flattened cattails was found in a marsh close
to a major highway and reported as a crop circle.
Source: Tom Randolph on DEC COM via INTERNET

920701    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  nine "horseshoe-shaped" patches of flattened grass were found
on either side of a brook in a Winnipeg suburb. Because of rece
storms and heavy rainfall, lodging was thought to be the cause
Source: Guy Westcott; NAICCR

920705    Hobbema, Alberta
-  two ovals of flattened barley were found in a field after
unusual lights were observed descending to the ground.  The
largest UGM has a major axis of 47 feet.  The crop is pushed away
uniformly from the centers of the patches, but the centers are
"clumped", like breaking waves.  Barley inside the circles is
"white", and devoid of colour.  It was later suggested that the areas
were due to spilled seeds and fertilizer, combined with lodging.
Source: Gord Kijek

920715    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  a field beside a highway was discovered to have numerous patches of
flattened crop, in irregular patterns.  The formations were discovered
by the same person who found case 920701.  Investigation by NAICCR and
interviews with the owner of the field established that the crop had
been laid down by strong winds and heavy rain.  The person who
discovered the formations was convinced that aliens created the
flattened patches.
Source: NAICCR

920721    Friedensruh, Manitoba
-  a farmer found a triangular area of flattened/swirled grass which
was surrounded by an electric fence.  The dimensions were 31x27x17
feet.  Local residents could not explain the phenomenon.  However,
NAICCR investigators found evidence that animals had trampled the site.
Source: NAICCR

920799    Pilot Peak, California
-  according to the Phoenix Project, a number of "landing zones" were
discovered near the site of an alleged underground alien base.  Visits
to the site by independent invesyigators have found only patches of
grass trampled by deer and other animals.  Two "landing zones" were
claimed.
Source:  John Pickens on INTERNET via Paranet

920799    Miniota, Manitoba
-  it was reported that a crop circle was discovered in a field of
oats.  The circle is perfectly round and 32 feet in diameter.  The oats
are flattened and swirled in a clockwise fashion.  The center of the
circle is devoid of vegetation.
Source:  NAICCR

920801    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a circle of flattened wheat was discovered in a field southwest of
Strathclair.  It was 28 feet in diameter.  The wheat was flattened and
swirled in a counterclockwise fashion.
Source:  NAICCR

920808    Strathclair, Manitoba
- a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars (a
circle with an attached arrow pointing away from it) was discovered in
a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main circle was 28 feet in
diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.  The wheat was flattened
counterclockwise.  In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the
circle.  The arrow pointed on a bearing of 260 degrees.
Source:  NAICCR

920815    Ipswich, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered just east of Ipswich.  The main circle was elliptical, with
axes 26 and 24.5 feet.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  The
arrow pointed on a bearing of 65 degrees.
A large, dark object with yellow lights was seen hovering over the site
the night before the formation was discovered.
Source:  NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat was found near other crop circle UGMs.  It
was roughly 20 feet in diameter.  Wheat was laid down in random clumps.
Examination suggested the area was caused by lodging.
Source:  NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered west of Strathclair.  The main circel was 24 feet in
diameter.  The wheat was flattened in a counterclockwise fashion.  The
arrow pointed on a bearing of 120 degrees.
Source:  NAICCR

920817    Brandon, Manitoba
-  a television station received an anonymous call that a crop circle
had been found on the property of the Brandon airport.
Source:  CKX-TV



--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8813 alt.conspiracy:17980
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Date: 24 Aug 1992 20:04:46 GMT
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 17 Aug 92 13:36:24 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   Dear Gary: Another person that people like to call me is Mutlu (a person
   who has a lot to say about politics of the Armenians and Turks. Gary in
   my opinion you should have them make a movie of all of this. I can't say
   that I believe it all. It may be true and it may be just what you imagine
   but I think it would sell about like Friday the 13th.

You mean Jason is really a moyle?  That would explain a lot.

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 19:03:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
|
| Jimmy Carter said during his 1976 campaign that he would release all
| government UFO-related files if elected, and then didn't.  Why?  I
| don't know.  Its not that there weren't things to release, as
| post-Carter FOIA cases have amply shown.
[ ... ]

    I was just thinking of this.

    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
    the President.  Surely Jimmy should have been aware of this.

    Perhaps, some of the documents weren't classified high enough
    and were when they caught wind of Jimmy's intentions.  Or,
    someone from one of those levels basically told him to
    shut up, giving the implications of what such a release might
    cause.  We may never know.  But I admire the fact that he was
    so open about going for the information... too bad.

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11451 alt.alien.visitors:8815 sci.skeptic:29468
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 19:10:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] writes:
| Dear People with guestions: Jeremy, RA, Big Al and Michael (not to be
| confused with the angel). You say that you think that mother ship was
| big, I show you big. There is one called The New Jerusalem that is
| 1500 miles square. It has some that work with it called the Seven
| Cities of Shan that evacuate entire civilizations. The Star of Bethlehem
| was not a star as we know stars. It was a light from an intelligently
| directed object that led the people in their journey. The Wheel In A
| Wheel seen by Ezekiel was space craft, but then that is just my humble
| opinion. John Winston.
[ ... ]

    Yet another thought provoking story...

    That's one hell of a big ship, John.  Where are they hiding them?

    You never answer questions that ask you to substantiate any of your
    claims.  Where are you GETTING this information (disinformation?)?

    These long articles indicate your interest in story-telling and
    composition, clearly.  And your posts are regular, and usually
    of the same type of content.  You get flamed, bashed, hammered,
    questioned... no response, but you still keep posting these
    stories!  I'm thoroughly confused, if that's your intention,
    I'm afraid you're succeeding.  Of course, I don't buy any of it
    whatsoever.

    Oh, and I liked the one about the Lizard Lady ... a modern day
    'V' woman?  ::Chortle:: Ask her for a date...


--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: NAICCR Report on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Report on recent crop circles and UFOs
Keywords: crop circles, NAICCR, north america, report
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 20:19:11 GMT
Lines: 312


NAICCR (North American Institute for Crop Circle Research)

Report on Investigations of Crop Circles
in the Area of Strathclair, Manitoba

18 August 1992


     Following media reports about several new crop circles in
western Manitoba, NAICCR representatives travelled to the area
for onsite investigations.

     Five crop formations were discovered, one of which was
easily explained as lodging.  Of the other four, three were in
the shape of the symbol for Mars: a circle with an attached arrow.
Two were alongside a major highway, while the others were
next to less-travelled farm roads.  The two near the major
highway were apparently made on the night of 14-15 August 1992.

     Rumours of the circles spread through the community, and
many people went to see the formations.  By Monday, 17 August
1992, an estimated 200 people had visited the sites.  News media
mentioned the sites in newscasts on 17-18 August, but the
formations did not attract the wide publicity that other, less
impressive and explainable formations had garnered a month
earlier.  NAICCR investigators were able to visit the sites on 18
August 1992, after a four-hour excursion from Winnipeg.

     Wheat and soil samples were taken from all sites.  Mapping
was done, though, because of excessive trampling of the
formations, measurement errors of about six inches were possible.
Compasses were employed, but no magnetic anomalies were detected.
Both VHF and AM/FM radios were tested, but no interference was
detected.  Tape recordings taken at the sites were unaffected.
No unusual sounds were heard, and no unusual "feelings" were
sensed.  Insects were present in normal quantities at the sites.
According to residents, animals were not afraid to enter the
areas.

     At one formation, two youths guarded the entrance and
brandished a sign reading: "A Loonie a Look"; they charged a
dollar to anyone wanting to enter the site. [Note: "loonie" is a slang
term for a Canadian dollar coin.]

     At Strathclair No.4, two NAICCR investigators decided to try
an experiment in circle creation.  They walked between the rows
of wheat into an unaffected area and began walking around in a
circle.  After five minutes, they had produced a circle of
comparable size to Strathclair No.4.  The new circle was swirled
and flattened, and examination of wheat stalks showed no breakage
whatsoever.  The stalks were only gently bent at a height of
about one to two inches above the ground, and did not appear to
have been subjected to any force.  The appearance of the new
circle was relatively "messy", but after a few minutes of "touch-
ups", it began to look more like the "real" circle.  Suggestions
were offered as to ways in which more even flattening could be
produced.  Since Strathclair No.4 was created on the night of 14-
15 August 1992, only a few days after full Moon, it was proposed
that a hoaxer could easily have created the formation without any
flashlights and ducked down below the level of the five-foot-high
wheat when an occasional car passed by.

     The hoax theory is complicated by a CE1 UFO
sighting over the field where the Ipswich formation was
discovered.  One close witness and two other witnesses observed
an unusual object moving over the field and then fly away on the
night that that formation was likely created.

     On the night of 14 August, a television program about crop
circles had been aired.  Residents of the area had recalled
seeing the episode.  However, at least two of the formations had
been discovered before the program was aired.  It is not thought
that the television program had necessarily precipitated the later
formations.

     Wheat samples will be given to several researchers for
testing.  As some cerealogists have claimed that seeds from
plants inside circles grow faster/better than those from a
control sample, double-blind tests of this theory will be
performed.  Further investigations are continuing.

     Descriptions of the formations follow, along with a number of UFO
reports from the same time period.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Strathclair, Manitoba                   UGM  920801.1
                                        Found: 1 August 1992


A circle of flattened wheat was discovered in a field southwest
of Strathclair.  It was 28 feet in diameter.  The wheat was
flattened and swirled in a counterclockwise direction.  The
circle was approximately 40 feet from a municipal road.

Known as Strathclair No.1.

Reported to the media on 16 August 1992.  NAICCR investigation
was on 18 August 1992.  The site had been badly trampled by
visitors during the interim.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Strathclair, Manitoba                   UGM 920808.1
                                        Found: 8 August 1992


A flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered in a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main
circle was 28 feet in diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.
The wheat was flattened and swirled in a counterclockwise
direction.  The formation was approximately 40 feet from a
municipal road, directly opposite a circle which had been
discovered a week earlier.

In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the circle,
following the lines of the arrow.  The arrow pointed away from
the circle on a bearing of 260 degrees.  The arrow was 18.5 feet in
length, with left and right arms of 6 and 6.5 feet in length,
respectively.  The width of the arrow was approximately 36
inches. The arrow pointed almost directly away from the road.

Known as Strathclair No.2.

Reported to the media on 16 August 1992.  NAICCR investigation
was on 18 August 1992.  The site had been badly trampled by
visitors during the interim.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Ipswich, Manitoba                       UGM 920815.1
                                        Found: 15 August 1992

A flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered in a field just east of Ipswich.  The main area
was 26 feet in diameter along its major axis and 24.5 feet along
its minor axis.  The wheat was flattened and swirled in a
counterclockwise direction.

In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the circle,
following the lines of the arrow.  The arrow pointed away from
the main area on a bearing of 65 degrees. The arrow was 17.5 feet in
length, with left and right arms 7.5 and 11 feet in length,
respectively.  The width of the arrow corridor was 28 inches.
The arrow pointed toward a farm road, its tip being only 36 feet
from the road.

Known as Ipswich.

Reported to the media on 16 August 1992.  NAICCR investigation
was on 18 August 1992.  The site had been badly trampled by
visitors during the interim.

A UFO had been seen at the site on 14 August 1992.
See: ND Case 920814.1 in UFOROM files.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Strathclair, Manitoba                   UGM 920815.1
                                        Found: 15 August 1992

A flattened area was found in a wheat field near other crop
circle UGMs.  It was roughly 20 feet in diameter.  Wheat was laid
down in random clumps, and some sections had rebounded upright.
The area was visible from a nearby road.  Examination suggested
the area was caused by lodging.

Known as Strathclair No.3

Reported to the media on 16 August 1992.  NAICCR investigation
was on 18 August 1992.  The site had been trampled by visitors
during the interim.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Strathclair, Manitoba                   UGM 920815.1
                                        Found: 15 August 1992

A flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered in a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main
circle was 24 feet in diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.
The wheat was flattened and swirled in a counterclockwise
direction.  The formation was approximately 100 feet from a
provincial highway.

In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the circle,
following the lines of the arrow.  The arrow pointed away from
the circle on a bearing of 120 degrees.  The arrow was 16 feet in
length, with left and right arms of 8.5 and 10 feet in length,
respectively.  The width of the arrow was approximately 66
inches. The arrow pointed away from the road.

Known as Strathclair No.4

Reported to the media on 16 August 1992.  NAICCR investigation
was on 18 August 1992.  The site had been badly trampled by
visitors during the interim.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Brandon, Manitoba                       UGM 920817.1
                                        Reported: 17 August 1992

A television station received an anonymous call that a crop
circle had been found on the property of the Brandon airport.

Investigations pending.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Miniota, Manitoba                       UGM 920799.1
                                        July, 1992

It was reported that a crop circle was discovered in a field of
oats.  The circle is perfectly round and 32 feet in diameter.
The oats are flattened and swirled in a clockwise direction.  The
center of the circle is devoid of vegetation.

The circle was found "in mid-summer".  It was reported to NAICCR
on 21 August 1992.

------------------------------------------------------------------

UFO Reports:

Ipswich, Manitoba                       ND Case 920814.1
                                        14 August 1992
                                        2115 local time

A woman was driving east from Shoal Lake to Strathclair when she
saw a pair of bright yellow lights over a field to her left.  The
lights appeared to be about 50 to 100 feet above the ground.  She
stopped her car to get a better look, and watched as the lights
moved in tandem, one above the other, progressing over the field
heading west.  As it was not quite dark, she was sure that she
could see a dark object behind the lights, with another very
small flashing light at its "tail".

The witness' daughter and son-in-law were following in their own
car, and they also saw the object before it moved out of view
behind some trees.  The object was visible for about two minutes
as it progressed slowly over the field.  No noise was heard.

Reported to the media on 15 August 1992.

The next day, a crop circle UGM was discovered in the wheat field
over which the UFO had travelled.  See NAICCR case 920815.1

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoal Lake, Manitoba                    NL Case 920814.1
                                        14 August 1992
                                        2300 local

A witness reported seeing a brilliant green flash of light which
illuminated the countryside.

Source:  Greg Nesbitt

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoal Lake, Manitoba                    NL Case 920815.1
                                        15 August 1992
                                        2200 local

A witness reported seeing a brilliant green flash of light which
illuminated the countryside.  It was visible for "a few seconds".

Source:   RCMP, Shoal Lake Detachment

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Winnipeg, Manitoba                      NL Case 920826.1
                                        26 August 1992
                                        0535 local

A witness reported a bright green object, "like an airplane going
to crash".  The object was rapidly moving from the west to the
east, but looked like it was "going up".  The object had a "long
tail".  It appeared to be over the Winnipeg airport.  It was
visible for only a few seconds.

Source:   Anonymous phone call from the witness to UFOROM.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A full report on the incidents, with detailed drawings of the crop
formations, will be available in hard copy from NAICCR at a later date.
The full report will be published in a major UFO journal and cerealogy
journal.  The Strathclair flap of UGMs and UFOs will be noted in the
annual NAICCR and UFOROM reports when published in 1993.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For further information, contact:

           NAICCR (North American Institute for Crop Circle Research)
           Box 1918
           Winnipeg, Manitoba
           Canada   R3C 3R2

On INTERNET, e-mail can be addressed to:

           [e-mail]

=======================================================================

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 19:23:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail] <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>I wish I had someone to converse with who would read this thing so I could
>have an INTERESTING conversation around here.

Well Struck!

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 20:01:33 GMT
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear People: Well it looks like Leonard [sic], Bear, Jeramy and RA have been
|> trying to eat me up as usual. The magazine referred to is the tabloid
|> Magazine called Sun.
|> John Winston.
|> ok

Not this time John ;^)

I was confirming that the "Ostrich People" do in fact exist. I am
absolutely certain I have read about them before and/or seen them
on a TV show like Nova. They have a genetic "anomaly" in their feet
that has been transported (over many generations) to about 33% of
their village. I can't confirm anything else in the story ;^)

I looked through *all* of my National Geographics and any other
book in my library that might contain a reference to these people,
but I couldn't find it. At the same time I am positive I have read
about it somewhere in a reputable (sp?) source and seen pictures of
the villagers. I even remember coming accross a reference to these
people in a "Ripley's Believe it or Not" kind of book and laughing
to myself because I knew that they actually did exist.

One tidbit I remember was that other villagers in Africa who had
not seen the "Ostrich People" believed that they could run and climb
trees *very* fast because of their unusual feet, but when the tribe
(village?) was actually discovered, these rumours proved to be false.
The feet were somewhat of a hinderance, but not enough to cripple the
people. The big toe is enlarged to about 4(?) inches and the little toe
is slightly less. The 3 middle toes are absent.

I realize noone will believe me without a reference, and believe me I
have tried to remember where I remember this from. If anyone else
remembers this as well, or has a reference to these people, I would be
forever in your debt. I'm sure a biologist or geneticist would be
aware of these people.


Leonard the unreferenced.



P.S. John: Thanks for finding a way to post more than 24 lines. It makes
           a big difference. Leonard.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:03:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <27-n=1#[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 23

In article <27-n=1#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>[e-mail] (Vampire Hunter C) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]>,
>>[e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
>>> We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
>>> be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

(I _really_really_ like this phrase!)

>>From what little I've seen of Monsieur Stollman, he either deserves a
>>literary prize (assuming his postings are a con/prank) or a padded cell
>>and a steady supply or thorazine (assuming he IS being serious).
>
>And what about if what I have been saying just happens, an option you
>didn't consider, to be the truth...???

Then the world is a much stranger place than any of us imagines, and makes
no sense whatsoever.  The only sane choice in this case is to become a raving
paranoid - which is what you seem to have done.  Of course, this does not mean
you are right.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:21:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People with guestions: Jeremy, RA, Big Al and Michael (not to be
>confused with the angel). You say that you think that mother ship was
>big, I show you big. There is one called The New Jerusalem that is
>1500 miles square.

John - Hah!  You call that big!?!  Elvis came to me last night and took
me to a ship 14 _lightyears_ across.  It's called the 'Blue Suede Shoe'.
So don't tell me about big.  BTW - you said 'I show you big'.  Does this
mean you have pictures?  I'd show you mine, but I forgot my camera :-(.

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!ucivax!orion.oac.uci.edu!ttinews!avatar!sorgatz
From: [e-mail] (sorgatz)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <27-n=1#[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 22:57:03 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <27-n=1#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>*****
>And what about if what I have been saying just happens, an option you
>didn't consider, to be the truth...???
>

 Gary, the point is, WHERE IS THE PROOF??!! You send these screwy messages,
filled with paranoic rantings and ravings, accusing all manner of things
but you never *ONCE* have offered us the slightest shred of real evidence.

 Put up or SHUT UP! Tell us where we can see these CLONE Laboratories, or
better yet, why not invite your CLONE PARENTS and your REAL PARENTS to a
PUBLIC HEARING/EXPO! THAT would be good enough! I'd accept it if you could
do that...truth is, your poor Father has suffered greatly with your illness..
..would you consider doing a little 'reality check' here? Here:

1) If you can't prove it, it may not be real.
2) Something that sounds like crazy talk might be *just* that.
3) Spouting this kind of stuff on the Internet, without proof will do you
    more harm than good - even if your story *is* true.
4) The next best thing to tangible evidence is eyewitness testimony. Do you
    have any eyewitnesses that would swear to the things you speak of? Have
    they seen them too? Are they credible witnesses?
5) Isn't it *possible* that these things are delusions? Something your mind
    has cooked up for you in the absence of something you might be missing?

 C'mon, think! For a change, think logically. Don't just post a bunch of your
continuing 'story' stuff. Dates. Witnesses names/addresses/phone numbers. The
stuff you claim happeded/is happening is worthless without the support of some
real, hard evidence. If you refuse this challenge, then consider yourself to
be in the kill file - got it? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!




-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
Citicorp(+)TTI                          *----------> panic trap; type = N+1 *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
{rutgers}!ttidca!sorgatz <- until 8/15/92 after-> ([e-mail])
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!bu.edu!dartvax!Rickie.A.Slater
From: [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:17:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:

>
> Satsang with Dr. Earlyne - Creating a Superior Race
>
> Q: You say the aliens are abducting for the purpose of encoding a
> superior race. Look what happened when the Germans tried that. Please
> explain why you think it's a good thing.
>
> A: It's clear I am being misunderstood. Let me try to "paint a
> picture" for you point by point.
>      1) Excuses
>      2) More excuses
>      3) More excuses
>      4) More excuses
>      5) More excuses
>      6) More excuses
>      7) More excuses
>      8) More excuses
>      9) More excuses
>      10)More excuses

My friends visit me and say hi and stay awhile. The day one of these
"alien parents" visits me and makes friends with me is the day I will
beleive I could ever be more than a lab rat to "alien parents".If there
is any truth to the statement "Their seed was artificially inserted"
then as far as I am concerned we are all nothing more than genetic
experiments.  Channel this to your sources.

Rick S.

BTW with human parents who are considerate enough to visit me, share
with me and care with me even though each of us caries around a
different description of what life is.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <k7=[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 23:10:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich) writes:

>
>    I think you've hit a point.  From what I understand, in the history
>    of Nicola Telsa, after he died, the US Govt confiscated several devices
>    and plans that he was working on.  Supposedly these were a significant
>    threat to the establishment.  There are rumors about what said plans
>    and devices included, but nothing substantial thus far, and I suspect
>    that we'll neither see nor hear about them... ever.
>
>    The sad thing, too, is that most people (or 'mad' scientists) who
>    work on such projects, and get found out by the govt, usually end
>    up with some 'problems'.  I wager private industry, such as the oil
>    and gasoline companies, would be apt to hire 'trouble' if they knew
>    someone were successful in creating a free-energy/substitute-for-oil
>    device.  There were 2 (maybe 3) incidents where a device was made

>    shut-up; the implications are obvious.
>
>    I also 'heard' that some really 'mad' scientists have been tied to
>    tables and thrown in rivers for their inventions... namely compliments
>    of Uncle Sam.
>
>    Who knows... it's weird.

It is wierd that you would blast JW for saying some pretty paranormal kinds
of things, then tell us a few "unsubstantiated" rumors yourself. Since I've
been called on the carpet for this a few times, I started quoting my sources,
but YOU didn't give us ONE. Come on Forrest, let's hear em...

I also have read similar types of info, but I'd like to hear about yours,
and you might as well let everyone in on it.
Jeff-
v
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <c8=[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 23:42:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 74

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>
>    [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>    But are the Government and the Military capable of cover-up on
>    such a grand scale, over such a long period of time, and with
>    the membership turnover required by such a long-scale action?
>
>    You're positing that hundreds if not thousands of people have
>    kept this secret for more than four decades, all the while
>    bringing new members into the conspiracy, retiring others, and
>    expanding and changing the orginal operation.
>
>   You also forgetting that secrecy oaths do not expire (ever), and
>carry extremely stiff penalties.

Yes, like "We'll kill your family, we'll kill you... these are documented
threats known to be made to UFO related witnesses by various government agents.

>
>    For them to cover up a single event for so long I could
>    accept.  But to continue to run it for so long without more
>    than the odd annonymous or shady defector, no physical
>    evidence, and continued complete success, just boggles the
>    mind.
>
>   Not really.  Warplans (the work of dozens, even hundreds of people)
>are kept secret, often long after their usefulness is gone.  For
>instance, the "Dropshot" warplans were kept secret for 28 years
>without a single leak, until declassified in 1977.  (This plan is
>detailed in Anthony Cave Brown's 1978 book "Dropshot".)  The reason
>for secrecy was apparent to everyone who knew of the three-volume
>opus, and so it didn't get out.  Secrets concerning British/US
>pre-WWII relationships (in which the US saw to it that British gold
>reserves were very low indeed before lend-lease began, to ensure a
>freer US hand after the war -- see Clive Pontings' "1940: myth and
>reality") didn't become public for over 40 years (mostly because of
>the British embarassment about being outmaneuvered like that.)  The
>"Ultra" project remained secret for a very long time too.
>
>Charles

I found it interesting how the secrets are kept, and John Lear cites the
example that for 200 years the knowledge that the earth orbited the sun
was kept from the masses by the church. This is an example, but modern day
stuff is much more scary:

RECIPE FOR A COVER-UP

1) Infiltrate most large media organizations, and place key operatives in
TV and printed news organizations.

2) Threaten all personnel exposed to Above Top Secret information with
loss of government pension, or worse, if secrets are revealed to anyone,
even other family members.

3) Place key "authorities" of steller public high-regard, to spread
lies, and scorn of any leaks that might arise.

4) Pulbish propaganda by leading "authorities in the field of study" that
renouce ideas contrary to agreed upon public awareness objectives.

5) Cultivate negative opinions within the academic community towards the study
of subjects outside of agreed upon public awarness objectives by funding cover
studies, withholding funds to some studies, and encourage ideas that help bring
about the objectives.

6) Dispatch agents to interogate, threaten, or assasinate those individules that
persist in diseminating personal experiences and secret information contrary to
agreed upon public awareness objectives.

I could go on and on...
but I won't .
Jeff-

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From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Grant some asylum to those less fortunate
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 23:50:53 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Distribution: alt
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Lines: 24
Originator: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu

If you suspect that someone may be struggling with mental illness,
why not just cut them some slack? Perhaps posting unusual articles
helps ease their psychogenic anguish - why needle them?

I highly recommend the following book:

Author:        Gottesman, Irving I.
Title:         Schizophrenia genesis : the origins of madness / Irving I.
                 Gottesman, with the assistance of Dorothea L. Wolfgram. New
                 York : Freeman, c1991.
Description:   xiii, 296 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

Series:        A Series of books in psychology.

Notes:         Includes bibliographical references (p. [256]-284) and indexes.

Subjects:      Schizophrenia -- etiology.
               Schizophrenia -- etiology.

Other entries: Wolfgram, Dorothea L.



-- Brad Pierce --
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 23:54:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Distribution: alt
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich) writes:

>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
>    the President.

I don't "know" that. Would you please elaborate?

-- Brad Pierce --
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!ub!csn!stortek!LSTC2VM.stortek.com!HOLFELTZ
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 23:13:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Lines: 39
Nntp-Posting-Host: lstc2vm.stortek.com

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich) writes:

>
>In article <[e-mail]|  [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:
>|
>| It's amazing how selective history is.  Or, are Tesla's works being covered up
>| due to their possible threats to the establishment (free power, etc?)
>|
>[ ... ]
>        The sad thing, too, is that most people (or 'mad' scientists) who
>        work on such projects, and get found out by the govt, usually end
>        up with some 'problems'.  I wager private industry, such as the oil
>        and gasoline companies, would be apt to hire 'trouble' if they knew
>        someone were successful in creating a free-energy/substitute-for-oil
>        device.  There were 2 (maybe 3) incidents where a device was made
>        to significantly increase the mileage of gasoline.  Exxon, and another
>        company at separate times, bought these plans from the scientist(s)
>        for a significant amount of money and under the condition they would
>        shut-up; the implications are obvious.
>[ ... ]

Want to hear about another one?  Try Royal Rife in the 20-30's.  He found
a cure for cancer, but the phameutical (ok, drug companies) and the American
Cancer Society fixed that with the help of the AMA.

Nothing a little greed wont stop!


A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land,

 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably                     |
 |             not your's either; and                                  |
 |             only mine, when authorized!                             |
 |                                                                     |
 |                                   Try: [e-mail]   |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8828 alt.conspiracy:17986
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!tomrice
From: [e-mail] (Tom R. Rice)
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <n0=[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 01:07:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: alt
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

[e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:

>>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
>>    the President.

    I assume those are the "burn before reading" levels.
    Of course, that's what the alt.alien.visitors folk
    have been saying about the documentation on the (in)famous
    Roswell Incident.

    Yes, please elaborate.  (If I were Pres and learned of
    this, I'd be pretty well p-o'd.)

trr

--
"Start off every day with a smile and get it over with."  --W.C.Fields
Tom R. Rice   WB6BYH                   Holler Observatory -
[e-mail]                     Longitude:  121 d  30 m  20 s W
CIS: 71160,1122                        Latitude:    37 d  25 m  10 s N
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 01:45:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 61


    [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich) writes:
    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are
    above the President.  Surely Jimmy should have been aware of
    this.  Perhaps, some of the documents weren't classified high
    enough and were when they caught wind of Jimmy's intentions.
    Or, someone from one of those levels basically told him to
    shut up, giving the implications of what such a release might
    cause.  We may never know.  But I admire the fact that he was
    so open about going for the information... too bad.


... Let's not go overboard.  To my knowledge there is nothing that the
President may not know.  All lines of authority in all federal
intelligence services end with the President (along with, of course,
the military, and so on.)  That "evil powers" would be able to pull
such a thing off is unlikely.  Conspiracies require willing
conspirators, and nobody joins the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. with the
intention of traitorous acts (well, except spies, but that's a
different matter.)

   The relationship between a president and the intelligence services
is fairly complex.  The President can find out whatever he wishes, but
may find there are things he does not wish to know (or wish it known
he knows).  This matter of "deniability" is tricky, since it allows
the possibility that the president will not know everything there is
to know.  Typicaly, however, deniability only holds in potentially
damaging cases when a dirty-but-necessary operation holds a distinct
possibility of being exposed (often these are covert operations
outside the US.)  "Deniability" is something of an artful dance, with
presidents making their wishes obliquely known, and signals being
passed back and forth, but everybody involved knows its a dance,
and so its mechanisms are understood.  But in any case, "deniability"
has nothing to do with levels of classification.  Sorry for the
digression....

   It is far more likely that President Carter found in 1977 that
releasing UFO-related documents would compromise existing intelligence
efforts (for instance the then-(and still)-very-secret KH satellite
programs, and various other sources of intelligence data) -- the
intelligence services, with reason, are loathe to give away exactly
how good their photography, cryptography, penetrations of other
goverments, etc.  really are -- that's one reason why UFO-related FOIA
documents are often severely censored, or even withheld.  This often
extends to "old" techniques, since knowing how good old techniques
were would give an idea of how good more modern techniques are.

   So, Carter would have been faced with telling all (whatever all
was) with catastrophic intelligence damage (entirely separate from
whatever effects of "telling all" would be), telling what could safely
be told - but having to say "I cannot tell you *really* all", with
resultant loss of credibility (Carter, among other things, portrayed
himself as a scrupulously honest, anti-Washington politician, and
hoped to run for re-election), or just drop the whole thing.  He chose
the latter.  After all, the number of voters who would remember the
promise (and care about its being broken) were quite few.  For Carter
to *announce* that he was breaking a campaign promise would be
political folly -- the broken promise in itself would become damaging,
rather than the actual promise broken.

Charles
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8830 alt.folklore.science:3115
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce
From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 01:58:04 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Want to hear about another one?  Try Royal Rife in the 20-30's.  He found
>a cure for cancer, but the phameutical (ok, drug companies) and the American
>Cancer Society fixed that with the help of the AMA.

Are you referring to the following book? I haven't read it. I assumed
it was bunkum.

-- Brad Pierce --

Author:        Lynes, Barry, 1942-
Title:         The cancer cure that worked! : fifty years of suppression /
                 written by Barry Lynes. Toronto, Canada : Marcus Books, 1987.
Description:   167 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.

Notes:         "Special section on the AIDS connection."
               At head of title: At last you can read the Rife report.
               Bibliography: p. 137-139.

Subjects:      Rife, Royal R. (Royal Raymond), 1888-1971.
               Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome -- therapy.
               Neoplasms -- Radiography.

Other entries: Rife report.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: more whittley streiber, 7731. Read 'So much rom..'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 23:50:28 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

[content removed]

|>   [...]        Why does this newsgroup seem to attract so many nut
|>   cases?
|>


Because of the groups name alt.ALIEN.VISITORS.

Several of us have tried to create a new "serious" news group, and the
response has always been overwhelmingly apathetic. Maybe someday...


|>
|> ---peter
|>


Leonard.


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: Grant some asylum to those less fortunate
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Date: 25 Aug 92 02:18:04 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
>If you suspect that someone may be struggling with mental illness,
>why not just cut them some slack? Perhaps posting unusual articles
>helps ease their psychogenic anguish - why needle them?

Good point, Brad.  Mayhaps we should all stop and think about that for
a minute...


kbq
--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8833 alt.conspiracy:17989
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 03:17:06 GMT

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Forrie Aldrich) writes:
>
>>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
>>    the President.
>
> I don't "know" that. Would you please elaborate?
>
> -- Brad Pierce --

IranContra--old Ronnie sure never heard of that, hee hee:-)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 03:38:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <c8=[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 38


    [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
    I found it interesting how the secrets are kept, and John Lear
    cites the example that for 200 years the knowledge that the
    earth orbited the sun was kept from the masses by the church.
    This is an example, [...]

... steady on.  The two situations really have nothing to do with one
another, and Mr. Lear's description of the church/heliocentristic
events is not altogether correct.  Giordano Bruno was not burned at
the stake for stating the earth revolved around the sun, for instance
(though he was burned, it was for saying the Universe was infinite,
and that god existed in every atom of it -- this was judged heresy.
Copernicus' "On the Revolutions of Heavenly Bodies" was published over
50 years before that.)  (Hey, when I pick nits, I pick nits! :-)

    RECIPE FOR A COVER-UP [get the news, threaten everybody, stomp
    your opponents on the airwaves, threaten everybody, coopt
    everybody, kill everybody, etc.]


... you're missing the point.  All a "coverup" needs is people who
*wish* to cover it up.  The Watergate coverup failed because various
necessary conspirators (the CIA, specifically) refused to have
anything to do with the coverup.  As long as you can keep a secret
thing known only to people you already know will keep the secret for
you (that's what the clearance procedure is all about), then you can
concentrate on the tiny minority of leaks with disinformation, etc.

   It is counterproductive to look at things as the media wishes you
to, in which everyone in the intelligence community is basically
stupid, or evil, or both.  It isn't so.  (The post-Watergate
generation of journalists has become obsessed with the appearance of
"deep throats", but I digress...)  Think about this as being done by
bright, inventive people, who believe in what they're doing.  Respect
your opponent...

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 04:28:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <27-n=1#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20


I have a document signed by the clone of my former case manager in
Tallahassee.  On the same document is anothr signature of his.  You can
tell the two signatures were NOT written by the same hand.  I will be
producing the document very soon, along with others.  Also, my signature
on the document is a forgery as well.  I am NOT the only one to have
clones replace my family and friends.  When I spoke to a girl at Florida
Junior College in 1985 on the inter-terminal talk system on the Plato
system at FSU, she told me that 7 of her friends and her parents had been
taken.  I AM the only one to speak up about it though.  Hang in there!
The proof is shortcoming...

    Gary

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 23:36:49 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Distribution: alt
References: <[e-mail]|
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <n0=[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

I believe there is alot of goings on of the CIA and other Government
agencies that are doing projects that the President does not know about...
after all, the JFK assasination was one of them...I don't think JFK knew
he was going to be assasinated, because it's easy to see it was a
conspiracy of at least one Government agency.

Just like anyone else in Government, the President is on a Need to know basis.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11468 alt.alien.visitors:8837
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 23:25:50 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

I think you need to get your story straight....You mention a 4 yr old
and the 2 large wolves, and then you say there were just the 3 of you
2 of your boys, 10 and 11 yrs of age, I believe, and one that you left
sitting at the tree line.  Surely you wouldn't leave a 4 yr old alone
at the tree line and travel 3 miles plus up the mountain...so
I think I've reached the conclusion that you are full of bull feces!

"Beware false Prophets"   which I think you are.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8838 alt.conspiracy:17995
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 13:40:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]| <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <n0=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: alt
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 19


    [e-mail] (Joe Carlson) writes:
    I believe there is alot of goings on of the CIA and other
    Government agencies that are doing projects that the President
    does not know about...  after all, the JFK assasination was
    one of them...I don't think JFK knew he was going to be
    assasinated, because it's easy to see it was a conspiracy of
    at least one Government agency.

... please take this to alt.conspiracy.jfk, where it belongs.  Suffice
it to say that Oliver Stone's rose-colored glasses notwithstanding,
this is not easy to see.  There are a number of curious parallels
between the UFO community and the JFK-assassination community (that
is, "fans" of each), not the least of which is that self-serving
"experts" tend to throw around a lot of myths and wild charges.  (In
the JFK field, though, there is a significantly larger amount of money
to be made in doing so.)

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!edcastle!fofp
From: [e-mail] (M Holmes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 13:05:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (Lance Franklin) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>}[e-mail] (Kev) writes:
>}
>}>             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
>}>             spacecraft"
>}>          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?

Yes, cigarettes do not burn in zero gravity.

FoFP
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!wpi.WPI.EDU!parker.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Subject: Re: Latest NAICCR info on crop circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: north america, crop circles, NAICCR
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: parker.wpi.edu
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:57:00 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski) writes:
>
>       1992 North American Crop Circles and/or UGMs
>           Reported to NAICCR as of 24 August 1992

[...]

>920808    Strathclair, Manitoba
>- a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars (a
>circle with an attached arrow pointing away from it) was discovered in
>a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main circle was 28 feet in
>diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.  The wheat was flattened
>counterclockwise.  In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the
>circle.  The arrow pointed on a bearing of 260 degrees.
>Source:  NAICCR
>
>920815    Ipswich, Manitoba
>-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
>discovered just east of Ipswich.  The main circle was elliptical, with
>axes 26 and 24.5 feet.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  The
>arrow pointed on a bearing of 65 degrees.
>Source:  NAICCR

[...]

>920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
>-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
>discovered west of Strathclair.  The main circel was 24 feet in
>diameter.  The wheat was flattened in a counterclockwise fashion.  The
>arrow pointed on a bearing of 120 degrees.
>Source:  NAICCR


Did any of the investigators think of calculating what single point
the three arrows are pointing to?  (if any)

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        # Ignorance is evil.
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    # Knowledge is good.
devastatingly true, except the bits # But knowledge is not intelligence,
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    # and ignorance is not stupidity.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 12:55:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 8

According to [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick):
>Nikola Tesla had been in school in what is or was Yugoslavia...

Quite.  Serbia, to be precise.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,fido.ufo
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!gburton
From: [e-mail] (Garland O Burton)
Subject: Re: 'official' documents...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:01:55 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arnold Alpert) writes:
>
>Hello.  I was wondering if it was posible for anyone to E-Mail me whatever
>'official-type' (Gov't., private organization...anything with some basis
>in fact...) documents dealing with the subject of UFO's and their
>existance.  I personaly have serious doubts as to their existance (Please
>forgive me if I'm stepping on any toes) and want some reading material to
>mull over.  T
>Thanx for your help.
>

or perhaps list a way to get some documents via FTP?

gb

--
[e-mail].............copyright 1992 gary burton........
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 09:46:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:

rant rant rant rant (rant rant)

>      6) What does this idea do to our ideas of immortality of the
> soul? - Of Jesus? Of Mary? Of life after death? Of Buddha? Of
> Mohammed? Well, perhaps it could help us know we *are* sons and
> daughters of Gods or gods - on our way to perfection. Certainly those
> beings whose "seeds" we share have divine souls. As offspring we too
> must be firmly convinced that their presence among us doesn't destroy
> our religious beliefs - but rather confirms them. After all Jesus was
> conceived by the Holy Spirit and an earth mother - and we certainly
> accept *His* immortality.

rant rant rant rant - Rant !

>      10) Again and again, I promise you. Their coming is for our
> ultimate good. If there is anything to be feared it is man's
> inhumanity to man - and man's refusal to turn to God in prayer and
> love.

[

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail]      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

] - evidence of insanity.

In the words of the Great Bartman, 'Oh puhlease man....'

If you're gonna use that much bandwidth, if you can't talk about facts &
evidence, could you atleast make it *slightly* entertaining?
--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be disappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ** How about a FAQ ** (Badly worded.....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 09:59:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 86

Would some KIND KIND PERSON PLEASE put my name down.

We need a FAQ.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination) writes:
> I've been reading this group for several months now and a sudden
> inspirational thought hit me! (and the crowd groans) What this group
> could use is a good old FAQ post every once in a while. I been here a
> while and I still haven't seen any nicely condensed information about
> the subjects that are discussed here. I'm willing to attempt to put
> together a FAQ for this group; however I don't consider myself highly
> knowledgeable in the area, So I'm going to be asking for a lot of
> background info on some of the subjects brought up here.
>
> But first what I could really use are some questions! I have
> an idea already on some information that would be needed to
> be included into the FAQ, but your input would be appreciated.
>
> Here are some examples of what I would like to include in the FAQ:
>
> Alien Groups:
>   I would like to put out some condensed background on the
>   different types of aliens discussed on this group.
>
>           Greys: I have some information on these guys,
>                  but I would like some more.
>      Pleiadians: I have no information on these, any
>                  background info would be of help.
>             MIB: I have this area covered.
>  Reptilian race: I don't know the name of them but i
>                  have heard them talked about on this
>                  group, any info would help.
>          others: any other groups I didn't think of.
>
> UFO Organizations:
>   I currently have no information on any of these groups,
>   if anyone has some background info, Phone Numbers, Mailing
>   addresses or the Long titles for the below acronyms of the
>   groups please send them to me.
>
>  MICAP
>  UFOROM
>  MUFON
>  SOBEPS
>  BUFORA
>  NUFON
>
> Known and acclaimed UFologists's:
>   maybe some short background info on some of the Major
>   people discussed in this group, such as:
>
>   Bud Hopkins
>   John Lear
>   others
>
> Active UFO sights and locations:
>   A current listing of locations that are suppose to be
>   "UFO Active"
>
> General Books that may be a good reference for people
> interested in UFO's, and a List of new books out about UFO's
>
> These are just some ideas that could be included in the FAQ.
> Please send me any information on the above topics or other topics
> and I'll organize it and stick it into a readable FAQ format if
> there is enough interest generated.
>
>                          [e-mail]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
> ~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
> ~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
> ~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
> ~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
> ~                             .                            .      ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be disappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEST1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: military helicopters lights
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Aug19.165303.1 <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:48:57 GMT
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Aimee Powell) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ric
> Pavek) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Hal Wa
>leigh) writes:
>>>And DON'T let anybody hypnotize you unless you have a reason.  If you w
>nt to
>>
>>What about the abduction victims that remembered being abducted WITHOUT
>>ever being hypnotized?
>>
>>Why is the assumption made that if the subject was hypnotized for the
>>purposes of recollecting incidents, and the incidents happen to include
>>abduction, that the hypnotist HAD to have lead the subject?
>>
>>I mean, we're not talking about lounge act Hypnotists here... this is
>>a clinical setting.
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>--
>>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its progra
>.
>>                                 |
>>Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
>>                                 |          and annoys the droid.
>
>
>
>What clinical setting?  Hopkins is far from professional in his
>practices, and as I understand it he uses his studio for these
>sessions.
>
>Aimee

Your words "far from professional in his practices" have *NO* meaning
unless you specify what you mean. Please expand this and explain this.
In his book "INTRUDERS" he seems very professional to me. I am not
any sort of authority on hypnosis or abduction investigations but
there is nothing obviously wrong with his investigative techniques that
I can detect.

Gregg.





--
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEST1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:04:41 GMT
Lines: 64

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>Dear Circle Watchers: (Now, who do you suppose I sound like?)
>>
>>I have been noticing all the talk about Circles. One thing I never have
>>seen mentioned is the fact that the British government has offered a
>>reward of about $20,000 for solving the crop circles.
>
>This is very interesting, but do you not mean 20,000 pounds?
>

No, the guy that was speaking said (this is a semi accurate quote):
"What amounts to 20,000 dollars".

>>Genetic altering of the seed. Grains were shown normal outside the Circle
>>but inside the grains were shown to have mutiple embyos. Not an uncommon
>>occurance since some outside the circle occasionally show multiples. What
>>is unommmon is the fact of the much higher percentage of multiple embryo
>>grains. (Myself, I consider this VERY unusual.)
>
>I'm not sure I understand how this is a sign of altered genes.
>

Well, I am somewhat. If we were more of a botanist we would. I guess it
just means that each seed was actually multiple seeds. Do you know how a
seed head of a wheat stalk is? Its a bunch of individual grains of wheat
with hulls, etc. attached to the end of the stalk. I think what they were
tyring to convey is the fact that, rather than having a single seed per
hull, the hulls actually contained multiple embryos (seeds).

>>Signs of some sort of heating. Someone said "microwave heating". Although this
>>could be true, just about any enery source from ultrasonic (if there is enough
>>quantity) to LF RF and on up to light will cause a rise in relative temperature
>>of given object. Especially if its a)wet or b)porous.
>>
>>Stalks are more than bent. More like weaved. In some, bases are weaved
>>in one direction while tops are weaved in another.
>>
>>Anyone that says they did this with a 2X4 and ropes is lying. Else:
>>I WANT SOME OF THOSE 2X4s !!!!!!
>
>In some ways, this reminds me of the claims made of the shroud.
>

Of Turin? Yeah, I know. Its all pretty odd with few explanations. Some of the
circles are, dare I say, hoaxes. But some, which have the attributes of
the afore mentioned "genuine" (I will get some flack about using that term,
you can be sure) circles, could be someone (I DID NOT SAY ALIEN!) with some
expensive and technoligically advanced toys.

>>Gregg.
>
>
>Rich
>
>[e-mail]
>
>

Gregg.


--
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!infonode!haefner
From: [e-mail] (Mark W. Haefner)
Subject: "I Am Sananda"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:06:46 GMT
Lines: 30


Okay "Newagers", I have a question.

I just finished the book "And They Called His Name Immanuel" I Am Sananda.
If I recall correctly this was discussed some time ago, so please
forgive me for hashing up old news.

Maybe an informed source here can tell me a few things that are confusing
to me:

1)  Who is dharma? Where is dharma now?

2)  Why was some of the language translated in 16th century style,
    (Thee, Thy, Ye...etc.)

3)  What groups are affiliated with this movement? (The reason I ask
    this is because I have a difficult time differentiating between
    many "Newage" groups because of similarities.

Feel free to tell me whatever else you choose too, as long as you are
informed on this subject. I am no way trying to ridicule or slander this
particular book or source. I simply am requesting information. Feel free to
e-mail me privately if desired.

Thanks in advance,


Mark Haefner


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEST1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:19:41 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (daniel fox) writes:
>Today I got the copy of the K-2 transmission and listened very carefully to
>it.  It is definitely the work of new age musicians.  The sounds recorded have
>an echo effect used all through the tape.  The same sound effects are used
>at periodic intervals for long stretches of the tape.  There is little to
>indicate a high information content, but a lot to indicate music.  Maybe it's
>alien new age musicians.
>
>                                             Daniel B. Fox
>                                             KF9ET


Yeah! Thanx for the opinion. Most of the frequencies they talk about
are much to low to have much highspeeddigitalencrypteddata in it. Its
interesting to listen to though.

Gregg.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!ucivax!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:24:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>
>    However back in Niagra Falls cooler heads prevailed.  Westinghouse
>finally got to install some of Tesla's AC generators which were proven
>to be superior.  It rather spread from there.  After a while, Edison
>was out of a job in the power generating industry.
>
>    Stick to lightbulbs, Tommy.....   :-)

From _The_Dictionary_of_Misinformation_, by Tom Burnam:

Inventor of the lightbulb:  Many people think he was, but Thomas A.
Edison simply improved upon a principle others had discovered and worked
on for years.  Electric lighting itself is much older than commonly supposed,
although the earliest attempts involved arcs rather than filaments.
As early as 1802 Sir Humphrey Davy produced an arc light, and in 1844,
three years before Edison was born, Jean Foucalt made an arc light
strong enough to illuminate the Place de la Concorde in Paris.

An English physicist, Sir Joseph William Swan, made a crude light bulb
as early as 1860.  In 1878, he showed a successful carbon-filament lamp
at Newcastle, some ten months beore Edison managed to come up with
his "original".


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8850 alt.conspiracy:18001
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Alexander)
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: alexa.lmt.com
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
References: <[e-mail]|  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <n0=[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 14:01:48 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <n0=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tom R. Rice) writes:
>
> [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
>
> >>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
> >>    the President.
>
>     I assume those are the "burn before reading" levels.
>     Of course, that's what the alt.alien.visitors folk
>     have been saying about the documentation on the (in)famous
>     Roswell Incident.
>
>     Yes, please elaborate.  (If I were Pres and learned of
>     this, I'd be pretty well p-o'd.)
>

>From some of the (unproven) things I have heard on the conspiracy circuit,
I was under the impression that Kennedy learned of it, *was* pretty p-o'd,
told them he was going to tell the American people about it and that's why
he got knocked off.

Moral: Don't fuck with scientists working for the military-industrial
       complex, even if you're the president. They know what's best for us.

-- Alex --





Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8851 alt.conspiracy:18002
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!reed!kuch
From: [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch)
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
References: <[e-mail]> <n0=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bob's Bile-a-torium
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:14:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Alexander) writes:
>In article <n0=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tom R. Rice) writes:
>>
>> [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>
>> >>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
>> >>    the President.
>>
>>     I assume those are the "burn before reading" levels.
>>     Of course, that's what the alt.alien.visitors folk
>>     have been saying about the documentation on the (in)famous
>>     Roswell Incident.
>>
>>     Yes, please elaborate.  (If I were Pres and learned of
>>     this, I'd be pretty well p-o'd.)
>>
>
>>From some of the (unproven) things I have heard on the conspiracy circuit,
>I was under the impression that Kennedy learned of it, *was* pretty p-o'd,
>told them he was going to tell the American people about it and that's why
>he got knocked off.
>
>Moral: Don't fuck with scientists working for the military-industrial
>       complex, even if you're the president. They know what's best for us.
>

Errr... what are you talking about?  What is this Roswell Incident?  What
did it have to do with Kennedy, and what is the original source for its
mentioning?  This isn't some bizarre-o paranoid UFO wank again is it?

--
Jerry Kuch ([e-mail]) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: in-body-experience
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:49:11 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: 147.34.4.19
Organization: Information Services
Keywords: obe
Lines: 52

My apologies if this is a second posting.


Early May, 1962, the body I now inhabit, (on loan) fell approximately 80 feet.
The resulting injuries and trauma (heart failure, blood loss) caused the body
to undergo emergency protection.  All systems shut down.  Lack of oxygen and
blood erased the 'personality' portions of the brain.  Actually, the circuit
connection template was destroyed.  Personality, and personal memories were
gone (well, still there but un-decodable).
As usual, I was checking out the view when I discovered this opportunity.  A
body, discarded (unrecoverable by the original) and since no other being had
claims on the form, it enabled me to acquire a human form.
Sensation and manifestation flooded by essence.  It is not surprising the will
to live.  Ah!, to be.  As I developed, I found this existence to be rather
wonderful, particularly, the part about humans and their independent thought,
their apparent isolation and separation. At last an opportunity to really
believe that somehow, me (this human) was/is not part of everything.  An
illusion, sure, but an incredible one at that.  Years later unusual events and
items began to appear.  These have always been also, but the illumination of
them could not occur until the separation process was completed.
Many stories and visions began to arise.  Some were allegories of the beginning
of this, the 6th universe. Some detailed the progress and milestones of other
beings, who having awareness, left structure(s) (immutable) to fall back into
the energy stream.  These structures, in turn, act like seeds, providing a
basis for form and value in successive universes.
Gardens and exhibits were observed, participants (items) from many worlds and
other universes, assembled to view the wonders of existence.  The many shapes
of molecular energy.
This universe, by my reckoning, began as a level 12.  The inhabitants of this
universe are bound by this opportunity.  As such, separation is easily
maintained due to the gap between what I am and what I think I am.  The
underlying structures, math, forms, children, provided for value, meaning,etc.
Certainly, awareness, intellect, experience, perception and other attributes,
enable a rich moment, called life.  The need to create
n +1 space and associated constructs (i.e. aliens, other worlds, victims,  etc)
appears to support the separation so vital to this moment.  This universe has
its beings and perceptions.  And so many humans remain asleep/unconscious.  And
so it goes, until union.  Not the interaction of human <--> alien but rather
human <--> human.  Energy frequencies, including that of the human mind are/can
be modulated.  And there are those who are very close to oneness.

This universe like all others maintains the model which perpetrated it.  All
forms embody and encompass the model.  N + 1, victims and aliens are just
constructs of the human experience, attempting to explain the separation in
palatable terms (for humans).

Please excuse any spelling errors and possible definition statements.

?



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From: [e-mail] (S Malnovic)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:03:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet system)
Organization: Monash University
Lines: 19
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

[e-mail] wrote:
:      Subject: The Photon Belt.
:
:      In the past years my Guru Merle told me repeatedly about the time
:      called the Three Days of Darkness.  This was a time when the Earth
:      would go through a time that the Sun couldn't be seen and there
:      wouldn't be any light. I didn't think too much about it but this last
:      week I got some information from a magazine called The Phoenix
:      Liberator, P.O. Box 986 Tehachapi, CA. 93581, that had more  to say
:      about the subject. Before telling you what it said let me  first state
:      that that my friend Don Showen doesn't think very highly of this
:      organization and another friend of mine call Paul Weston thinks that
:      the  information is very good,  so you can come to your  own
:      conclusion, I don't  know which is right. ....

Did this infact happen ? I didn't notice anything !
If it did not, what is your explanation of it !

Sascha
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:06:20 GMT
References: <n0=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 49

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Alexander) writes:
>>In article <n0=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tom R. Rice) writes:
>>>
>>> [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>>
>>> >>    There are a few levels of Top Secret, as we know, that are above
>>> >>    the President.
>>>
>>>     I assume those are the "burn before reading" levels.
>>>     Of course, that's what the alt.alien.visitors folk
>>>     have been saying about the documentation on the (in)famous
>>>     Roswell Incident.
>>>
>>>     Yes, please elaborate.  (If I were Pres and learned of
>>>     this, I'd be pretty well p-o'd.)
>>>
>>
>>>From some of the (unproven) things I have heard on the conspiracy circuit,
>>I was under the impression that Kennedy learned of it, *was* pretty p-o'd,
>>told them he was going to tell the American people about it and that's why
>>he got knocked off.
>>
>>Moral: Don't fuck with scientists working for the military-industrial
>>       complex, even if you're the president. They know what's best for us.
>>
>
>Errr... what are you talking about?  What is this Roswell Incident?  What
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>did it have to do with Kennedy, and what is the original source for its
>mentioning?  This isn't some bizarre-o paranoid UFO wank again is it?
>
>--
>Jerry Kuch ([e-mail]) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
>  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
>   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns
>

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!
If you don't know what the Roswell Incedent is, if you think Alien Abduction is
Mexican Slave Trade, if you have never heard of Project Blue-Book, or Project Grudge, PLEASE DO NOT POST TO THIS NEWS GROUP. READ A UFO book. It's really a much
better investment of your time, and everyone else's present!

Is there a FAQ for this group:
?????????????????????????????????
I think we need one if there is not. I've seen one mentioned, but I haven't the foggiest where it is...

Jeff-
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From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:27:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <27-n=1#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 23

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>I have a document signed by the clone of my former case manager in
>Tallahassee.  On the same document is anothr signature of his.  You can
>tell the two signatures were NOT written by the same hand.

Let's conduct a little experiment shall we Gary?  Get a piece of paper and
a pen and write your signature on it twice.  First with the pen in your right
hand, and second with the pen in your left hand.  I bet you that it will be
obvious to anyone that the two signatures weren't written by the same hand.

:-)

>The proof is shortcoming...

I'm waiting ...

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: "I Am Sananda"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:18:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark W. Haefner) writes:
>
>Okay "Newagers", I have a question.
>
>I just finished the book "And They Called His Name Immanuel" I Am Sananda.
>If I recall correctly this was discussed some time ago, so please
>forgive me for hashing up old news.
>
>Maybe an informed source here can tell me a few things that are confusing
>to me:
>
>1)  Who is dharma? Where is dharma now?
>
>2)  Why was some of the language translated in 16th century style,
>    (Thee, Thy, Ye...etc.)
>
>3)  What groups are affiliated with this movement? (The reason I ask
>    this is because I have a difficult time differentiating between
>    many "Newage" groups because of similarities.
>
>Feel free to tell me whatever else you choose too, as long as you are
>informed on this subject. I am no way trying to ridicule or slander this
>particular book or source. I simply am requesting information. Feel free to
>e-mail me privately if desired.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Mark Haefner
>
>
Well, what a sincere little post:-)

Dharma is not a who, at least not as far as I'm aware of. It's a Hindu term,`
in fairly common usage, even in the English language. Webster's defines dharma
as "the basic principles of cosmic or individual existence; conformity to one's duty and nature."

I have not read the book you have mentioned, but several groups that channel
Space Brothers/Sisters are outlined and explained in Brad Stieger's "The
Fellowship" and I would recommend this book to anyone that wants to learn
more about this type of channeled information and the similarity of information
being channeled by different individuals around the country.

Old english terms may be pretty foreign sounding to us, but if your an entity
that is immortal, or has a life span of 1000 years, the 16th century was yesterday...

Jeff-



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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:34:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <n0=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: alt
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 22


    [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch) writes:
    Errr... what are you talking about?  What is this Roswell
    Incident?

... Try to find a book called "UFO Crash at Roswell", by Kevin Randle
and Donald Schmitt (Avon, 1991).  It gives a pretty good summary of
the events known as "The Roswell Incident" (also, this is the title of
the less-useful Berlitz and Moore book on the subject, published in
1980.)

    What did it have to do with Kennedy, and what is the original
    source for its mentioning?  This isn't some bizarre-o paranoid
    UFO wank again is it?

The Kennedy/UFO thing comes, as far as I can tell, from John Lear,
beginning in the mid-1980's.  Bill Cooper (also known in UFO circles)
has put forth that JFK was shot by his driver (with a video to "prove"
it, which is apparently a doctored version of the Zapruder film), but
as far as I know hasn't 'connected' it to UFOs.

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:27:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Carlson) writes:
>I think you need to get your story straight....You mention a 4 yr old
>and the 2 large wolves, and then you say there were just the 3 of you
>2 of your boys, 10 and 11 yrs of age, I believe, and one that you left
>sitting at the tree line.  Surely you wouldn't leave a 4 yr old alone
>at the tree line and travel 3 miles plus up the mountain...so
>I think I've reached the conclusion that you are full of bull feces!
>
>"Beware false Prophets"   which I think you are.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

John is a deeply religous man and I think until he starts claiming he is
Jesus Christ, we could do without these personal attacks...
Jeff-


From: [e-mail] (Michael Blackwell)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!acsnet
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: shared databases, in
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:32:00 +1000
Lines: 30

 Jc> That is an excellent question; it prompts one to sort out his
 Jc> beliefs.  I personally believe CE Is, CE IIs, crop circles are plasma
 Jc> (people didn't believe in ball lightning a few years ago, remember)
 Jc> and/or meteorological phenomena.  I think CE IIIs/abductions are a
 Jc> psychological phenomenon similar to the Our Lady of Fatima (?)
 Jc> sightings. Those kids are 100% certain they were talking to the Virgin
 Jc> Mary.   Considering neuroresearch indicating you can trigger a
 Jc> religious  experience by electrically stimulating certain regions of
 Jc> the brain,  what if the electromagnetic phenomenon that causes a CE I
 Jc> or II is in the  proximity of a human?  Do we get a CE III?
 Jc> As far as the paranormal (Pleiadian, channeling, etc.) goes, I
 Jc> think humans have an inherent need for religion and since the God and
 Jc> Satan of the Bible aren't believable anymore, why not invent new ones
 Jc> that zoom through space and commune with us in hottubs or slice and
 Jc> dice cow genitals?

Do you have any details of any research or books drawing the analogy
between the current belief in "greys", UFOS, etc, to that of elves and
other explinations of things that appear unexplainable?  There appears to
be an antiscience theme to nearly all UFO abductions, and with the
believers of such. I am interested in researching this.

Thanks,   Michael

(PS Please excuse my pitiful grammer & syntax, I've not had much sleep)

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: AMb [61-8-269-1242] (3:800/869)

From: [e-mail] (Michael Blackwell)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!acsnet
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the nature of realit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:57:02 +1000
Lines: 28

 -=> Quoting Leonard Spani to All <=-

 LS> I'm not saying that we should abandon all critical thought, just that
 LS> we  should take particular care when replying to people's *personal*
 LS> experiences.
 |>              <stuff deleted>
 LS> debunking fodder. Alt.paranormal in particular was created for people
 LS> to discuss paranormal topics free from the bother of *having* to prove
 LS> the existance of what they wanted to talk about. I don't know why

What I've found interesting is that people have great difficulty in
believing a friend has been taken by the Aliens(tm), but believe that
the Aliens(tm) or something similar exist. So if they exist in their
frame-work why is it not possible that a friend or two has been taken?

Personally I find it interesting that people need a being or beings that
are more powerful than themselves to believe in. An almost antiscience
cult, as the Aliens(tm) are .....more in tune with nature and have a
science & technology much more advanced than ours. Funny how a lot of
these believers have trouble using a VCR or understanding even very
basic science or art. Was it Goethe who said "There is nothing more
frightning than ignorance in action."?

Michael
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: AMb [61-8-269-1242] (3:800/869)

From: [e-mail] (Michael Blackwell)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!acsnet
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: we have met the enem
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:11:04 +1000
Lines: 23

 -=> Quoting Leonard Spani to All <=-

 LS> There are reports that some abduction victims show signs of
 LS> Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. PTSD as it is currently understood is
 LS> supposed to only occur in people who have been the victim of an
 LS> objective (i.e. not psychological), external, stressful event (like
 LS> rape.)
 LS> This would tend to indicate that the abduction event had at least some
 LS> reality. It could also indicate that something is wrong with the
 LS> way they understand PTSD or that the abduction phenomenon is a new
 LS> type of psychological condition that effects people in a manner
 LS> usually reserved for externally induced traumas.

Like child abuse.  An alien abduction would be one way to come to terms
with being raped when a child, especially by one's father.

Michael


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: AMb [61-8-269-1242] (3:800/869)

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <p9an=[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:34:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <c8=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 20

Charles writes:

The Watergate coverup failed because various
necessary conspirators (the CIA, specifically) refused to have
anything to do with the coverup.

i*******************************

If you think the public's viewpoint, or information released by Woodward and
Bernstien was all there was to the Watergate scandle, you don't really understand
the half of it.

Even the most level-heads agree that Nixon was setup by the CIA to fall such that
the "Bay of Pigs Thing" (Kennedy ASSINATION) wouldn't come out.

And the truth could lie much deeper. As far as that goes, there is reason to believe that Deep Throat WAS the CIA! So don't go telling ME about how they refused
to have anything to do with the cover-up. Have you ever heard of G. Gordon Liddy?
We're talking about THE AGENCY.
Jeff-

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:11:42 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16

Dear Seekers of Truth: The question was asked, "Who is Dharma"? Dharma is
a person who serves as a channel for some highly evolved beings such
as Sananda and Hatonn. She has been and is probubly now in the town
of Tehachapi, Calif. at American West Publisher, P.O. Box 986, Tehachapi,
Calif 93581, [phone]. I don't condone nor refute anything that
is said by her. I have read the book you mentioned by Sananda. Sananda
speaks about relgious things in a King James sort of words. People who
read the King James version of the bible seem to like it that way. Many
times religious things are put down in that way to just weed out the
people who are not truely searching for the truth. Newage group do seem
a lot alike. A group of Light Workers that Don Showen used to work
with have had Mr. Green and Dharma in to speak to them before. Don
doesn't like the information of Hatonn that is coming from Hatonn through
Dharma. We both enjoyed the information from Hatonn that came through
Mr. Miller and the Solar Cross.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:19:29 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

There were 7 people is our party, My two friends Pete and Mary, my wife
myself and my 4 boys and my nephew. We left my four month old son back with
my wife and the other people. Three of us were together at the end of
the hike.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch)
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Floating Crud on the Pond
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:04:46 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>
>    [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch) writes:
>    Errr... what are you talking about?  What is this Roswell
>    Incident?
>
>... Try to find a book called "UFO Crash at Roswell", by Kevin Randle
>and Donald Schmitt (Avon, 1991).  It gives a pretty good summary of
>the events known as "The Roswell Incident" (also, this is the title of
>the less-useful Berlitz and Moore book on the subject, published in
>1980.)

Can you give some details of the incident?  i.e. what crashed, where, when,
what supposedly happened after that, etc.?  What evidence is there to support
any related theories...

>    What did it have to do with Kennedy, and what is the original
>    source for its mentioning?  This isn't some bizarre-o paranoid
>    UFO wank again is it?
>
>The Kennedy/UFO thing comes, as far as I can tell, from John Lear,
>beginning in the mid-1980's.  Bill Cooper (also known in UFO circles)
>has put forth that JFK was shot by his driver (with a video to "prove"
>it, which is apparently a doctored version of the Zapruder film), but
>as far as I know hasn't 'connected' it to UFOs.

I've seen that film.  I think it's more a crappy copy than a doctored
version... the gun turns out to be a reflection... certainly nothing
substantial.


>
>Charles


--
Jerry Kuch ([e-mail]) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns

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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 01:14:43 GMT
References: <27-n=1#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>taken.  I AM the only one to speak up about it though.  Hang in there!
>The proof is shortcoming...

Yup, and Marilyn Monroe will be the next vice president of the United
States....

--
"The mass killings by shooting proved cumbersome and expensive. Too many
people were needed to shoot 33,711 Jews on September 29 and 30, 1941, at
Babi Yar near Kiev. Eventually, close to 100,000 corpses filled that
ravine, mostly of Jews, but also of partisans and saboteurs." [Laska]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newsroom.utas.edu.au![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Chris Stapelberg)
Subject: Are we an experiment ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 02:07:17 GMT
Lines: 63

Why have only certain "chosen" induviduals been contacted ?
Why are we being abducted and scrutinised like laboratory rats ?
Why are there certain alien induviduals living among us, without contributing
directly to world affairs on a physical/political/financial basis ?

Although these questions make a few (some would consider them outrageous)
assumptions, mounting (if still somewhat circumstantial) evidence seems to
be pointing us towards considering these questions.
Some induviduals, supposedly "in the know", have suggested that aliens are
very pacifistic in their nature, thus by their philosophy being unable,or
rather unwilling, to change our global Karma.
But,assuming their benevolence, they should be down here helping a first world
that has gotten itself helplessly tangled in meterialism,that is still trying
to attain a truly perfect political system, and is basically on the decline.

But more importantly, why are they turning a blind eye to the starving
millions who are still groping for mere daily survival, never mind spiritual
growth!

To illustrate my point, would any prosperous,"good" earthling deny a
disease-stricken, hungry beggar a loaf of bread on the basis that it is his
Karma to starve ?
Please note that the example may be lacking in many respects and is arguably
a stupid one,but it should do here.

Anyway, having dragged you through all this,and you having actually read it,
is it not possible that we are the galactic version of the Simpsons !?

We sure fit the bill : Very average, small planet with declining civilisation
contains puny, destructive race who think they are alone.
Hobbies : destroying their own planet, and/or  destroying each other
          love eradicating animal species

etc.

We must be the funniest thing this side of Alpha Centrauri !

In fact, I'll bet they have a regular UFO service to ship "humanoid" aliens
to earth and have a good laugh!

But why actually "contact" us on a large scale and spoil the fun !
And now that we are getting inquisitive, why let us spot them once in a while
and keep us guessing.
Then they can sit for the next year or two watching reruns of our latest
documentary, or even better, they can giggle at us trying to explain away
their corn circles !


Anyway, time is short, so let me finish off by saying this:
Although i may have gotten carried away towards the end, my point, I
hope, is still valid.
Why flatter ourselves. Our sole purpose as far as any aliens may be concerned
may be to entertain them with our dismal exsistance.

We may just be the funniest experiment ever created !

I would welcome any commentary providing you dont scold me too much!
But I am being serious !

my address is [e-mail]

regards,
Chris.
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From: [e-mail] (Tom R. Rice)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <z#[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:37:25 GMT
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Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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[e-mail] (Jerry Kuch) writes:



>Errr... what are you talking about?  What is this Roswell Incident?  What
>did it have to do with Kennedy,

    It had nothing to do with Kennedy

  This isn't some bizarre-o paranoid UFO wank again is it?

    Yes

--
"Start off every day with a smile and get it over with."  --W.C.Fields
Tom R. Rice   WB6BYH                   Holler Observatory -
[e-mail]                     Longitude:  121 d  30 m  20 s W
CIS: 71160,1122                        Latitude:    37 d  25 m  10 s N
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:01:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <c8=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <p9an=[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
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    [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
    If you think the public's viewpoint, or information released
    by Woodward and Bernstien was all there was to the Watergate
    scandle, you don't really understand the half of it.

    Even the most level-heads agree that Nixon was setup by the
    CIA to fall such that the "Bay of Pigs Thing" (Kennedy
    ASSINATION) wouldn't come out.

... and yet Nixon lived, and he lives still.  Surely the conspiracy
you posit could not have allowed that.  Simply engineering his fall
(with the help of all sorts of right-thinking people) would not shut
him up (as we have indeed seen -- the man never seems to want to write
his "last book".)

   Surely the conspiracy you posit would not have allowed Jimmy Carter
and his man Stansfield Turner to gut the agency in 1976 (in which some
200 senior CIA people were removed, along with 600 lesser personell to
"streamline operations" -- this at a time when the entire agency,
world-wide, numbered 4,730.).

   Surely the conspiracy you posit would not allow journalists like
Seymour Hersh to run around breathing (Hersh blew the lid off the
CIA's domestic spying operations in 1974 -- such a thing would cut
very close to the bone of your conspiracy.  The story, by the way,
caused the hasty resignation of James Angleton, CIA chief of
counterintelligence -- Director Colby heard about publication ahead of
time, and convinced Angleton to resign "pre-emptively".  Why not just
kill the report?  Or the reporter?  But Hersh is not dead, and is
still writing books -- the latest, I believe, is the 1991 "The Samson
Option".)

    And the truth could lie much deeper. As far as that goes,
    there is reason to believe that Deep Throat WAS the CIA!

... and there is reason to believe he was not (since no one but
Woodward and Bernstein and Bradley (and "Mr. Throat" :-) knows, my
guess is as good as yours.)  I'd like to hear your reasons, though.
Its easier for me to see DT as someone inside Nixon camp, rather than
CIA, but I'd be interested in hearing other points of view.

    So don't go telling ME about how they refused to have anything
    to do with the cover-up. Have you ever heard of G. Gordon
    Liddy?

... sure have, I've even met the man (big deal, I got his autograph at
one of his self-serving lectures in the early 1980's.  Still got it
around here someplace...  someday I'm going to open up that copy of
"Flashman at the Charge", and wonder what in the *hell* Gordon Liddy's
autograph is doing there... :-)  But Liddy was FBI, not CIA.  (Next
time around, try E. Howard Hunt.)

   In any case, Liddy spent a number of years in jail, alive--
wouldn't your conspiracy theory have been better served if he had been
killed there?  If he was acting on the Agency's behalf, then he would
have been a very, very loose end indeed.  Killing Liddy in jail would
have been very easy to arrange...

    We're talking about THE AGENCY.

... yup, an although you may think of the Agency as a bunch of hooded
ghouls ohm-ing around a table, ruining your life, I do not.  One day,
we'll know who is right.

Charles

PS - Source: Rhodri Jeffreys-Jones' "The CIA and American Democracy",
Yale University Press, 1989.

PPS - I am not a fan of the CIA by any stretch of the imagination.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:41:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
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    [e-mail] (Jerry Kuch) writes:
    Can you give some details of the incident?  i.e. what crashed,
    where, when, what supposedly happened after that, etc.?  What
    evidence is there to support any related theories...

OK, just a taste, but you're much better off getting the book, its in
paperback.

July 1, 1947    Sherman Campbell discovers a weather balloon near
        Circleville, Ohio.  [This is only included to contrast
        this with the "balloon" at Roswell.  Campbell was
        allowed to keep his balloon; pictures of it and his
        daughter appeared in newspapers.]

July 2        Around 10pm, a UFO is seen in the sky near Roswell
        by two sets of witnesses.  Mac Brazel and others hear
        an explosion near his ranch during a thunderstorm
        (that is, something they knew was not thunder.)

July 3        Mac and another (a 7-year-old child) discover the
        "debris field" in a pasture.  Brazel visits the
        Proctors (parents of the child), and shows them some
        of the stuff (light-weight, metallic).  That evening,
        Brazel takes a large circular piece of the debris
        and stores it in a shed.

July 5        Brazel goes to Corona, NM, and tells some
        acquaintances about what he's found.

July 6         Brazel drives to Roswell to tell Sherrif Wilcox.
        Wilcox calls the Roswell air field to report Brazel's
        find, and sends two deputies to find the site.
        That afternoon, Col. Blanchard, Maj. Marcel, and
        Captain Cavitt arrive at Wilcox's office to interview
        Brazel.  Marcel and Cavitt go back to his ranch
        to see the debris (and spend the night at the Brazel
        ranch.)  The two deputies return, having found an area
        of "blackened ground".  That evening, a plane with
        debris on hand (from Brazel) is flown to Fort Worth.


July 7        Brazel takes Marcel and Cavitt to the debris field.
        Marcel and Cavitt load their vehicles with
        debris, and late in the evening, head back toward
        Roswell.

July 8        Marcel stops at his home (around 2am), and shows some
        of the debris to his wife and son, then goes on to
        the Air Field.  That morning, Col. Blanchard orders
        Maj. Easley to post guards to restrict access to the
        debris field.  Cavitt and M/Sgt Rickett go to the
        ranch and take Brazel to the debris field again.
        Troops are dispatched to recover everything in the
        debris field.  Around 11am, Col. Blanchard dictates
        the famous "Flying Saucer" press release to Walter
        Haut.  Haut distributes the release to local radio
        and newspapers -- around noon, the story hits the
        AP wire.  A team of (military) photographers is flown
        in to Roswell.  By afternoon, phone lines are jammed
        at the base, newspapers, and Sherrif Wilcox's office.
        Wilcox dispatches two more deputies to the debris
        field, but they are turned back by MP's.

        Brazel is brought back to Roswell, then flown back
        to the debris field; other reconaissance flights
        are occurring.  Later on, Marcel flies from Roswell
        to Fort Worth, with a few packages of debris.

[I'm leaving out tons of things, including the bodies.  This is not
the entire timeline, nor all of the days it covers.  Sorry, but you
should buy the book! :-] Anyway, there were a lot of planes flying
parts of whatever-it-was out of Roswell, and the amount of activity is
just not consistent with a fallen balloon (Maj. Marcel, who should
know, later said it wasn't a balloon at all.)

... while I'm at it, I'd also like to recommend "The Roswell Report: A
Historical Perspective", available from CUFOS -- a collection of
articles from CUFOS's Int. UFO Reporter that bear on the Roswell
story, many written by Randle and Schmitt, and which includes an
expanded timeline.

Hope this helps,

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:10:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 11
Originator: [e-mail]


...and I am their friend, and I'd like to invite any greys who are
reading this who might happen to be in the vicinity of Austin to
stop on by sometime soon...for some chili. ;-)

Craig
--
-- "You can expect virtually      Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  anything from a people who had      Internet: [e-mail] --
--  nuclear weapons in the early      IBM TR: [e-mail] --
--  seventeenth century."                           VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:20:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 37
Originator: [e-mail]


[e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
> [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:
>
> >Yes, Tesla was a crackpot.  He also happens to be behind 90 % of what you are
> >using right now.  Looking around me, I see very little electrical equipment
> >that doesn't have some of his work in it.  Marconi was using 29 of Telsa's
> >patents when he 'invented' wireless.  Tesla had demonstrated it
> >several YEARS earlier.

True. He also invented the AC motor, which I believe has been responsible
for some small amount of technological progress.

>     Edison hired some folks to go around the country with some AC
> apparatus.  They'd take big hunks of red meat, attach it to the
> apparatus and then throw the switch.  The resulting frying, sizzling,
> etc. display scared the hell out of those watching.  Edison referred
> to the effect as having been "Westinghoused".

They also occasionally used small furry animals.

>     My source for a lot of this is a book by Margaret Cheney -
> "Tesla: Man out of Time".  I strongly encourage anyone to read this
> book.

Unfortunately, Cheney's book read (to me, anyway) as an exercise in
unabashed hero worship. I personally don't believe all of the claims
she made for Tesla. However, there are other (better) biographies of
Tesla out there, and they do tend to back up the stories you mentioned
in your post.

Craig
--
-- "You can expect virtually      Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  anything from a people who had      Internet: [e-mail] --
--  nuclear weapons in the early      IBM TR: [e-mail] --
--  seventeenth century."                           VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11502 alt.alien.visitors:8873 sci.skeptic:29593
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: "I Am Sananda"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 06:33:07 GMT
Lines: 6


Pleased to meet you.  :~)(

BTW, I thought that dharma was indian for "social obligation."

"I Am Big Al."
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!newshub.sdsu.edu!sciences!ednet
From: [e-mail] (SDSU Vigil)
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: sciences
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 06:33:02 GMT
Lines: 10

   There are hypotheses that explain volcanic activity on the moon. One is that
the moon has volcanic activity just like the Earth does, but has become
inactive over time.
   Another is that meteorite impact on the moon causes
melting of surface material, and formations, effects, etc. that resemble
traditional volcanic activity.
   Then again, maybe the Grays forgot to make sure their camp fire was put out
properly.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11503 alt.alien.visitors:8875 sci.skeptic:29595
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 06:47:54 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Seekers of Truth: The question was asked, "Who is Dharma"? Dharma i

>a person who serves as a channel for some highly evolved beings such
>as Sananda and Hatonn. She has been and is probubly now in the town
>of Tehachapi, Calif. at American West Publisher, P.O. Box 986, Tehachapi

>Calif 93581, [phone]. I don't condone nor refute anything that
>is said by her. I have read the book you mentioned by Sananda. Sananda
>speaks about relgious things in a King James sort of words. People who
>read the King James version of the bible seem to like it that way. Many
>times religious things are put down in that way to just weed out the
>people who are not truely searching for the truth. Newage group do seem
>a lot alike. A group of Light Workers that Don Showen used to work
>with have had Mr. Green and Dharma in to speak to them before. Don
>doesn't like the information of Hatonn that is coming from Hatonn throug

>Dharma. We both enjoyed the information from Hatonn that came through
>Mr. Miller and the Solar Cross.
>John Winston.


The really Goofed up part is that I think that John's the expert here!

Big Al.  Hey John, we ever gonna do that picture thing? You'd better wait
till after I move, though.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: more whittley streiber, 7731. Read 'So much rom..'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:36:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 31


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>   bottom line in both cases: EVIDENCE.
>>OK No evidence for All Powerfull Entities etc, BUT their is concrete
>>evidence for the existance of aliens and there is a good possibility
>>of abductions etc. This evidence is all around you. Infact, one of
>>the points in the Rio TalkFest was cutting down the ammount of
>>evidence. The overcrowding of this planet by evidence and the destruction
>>of the habitats of other type of evidence is a serious environmental
>>problem. GET DA DRIFT?
>
>   No.   Does anybody else "get da drift" of what this poster is
>   talking about?    Does this mean that John Winston and Gary Stollman
>   have company?   Why does this newsgroup seem to attract so many nut
>   cases?

Dear oh dear oh dear...Who's being picking posts at random?
Humans=evidence of sentient life in universe.
Only one hell of a conceited bastard thinks that all the life in the entire
unverse can be found in a thin layer of crap on the outside of a liquid steel
ball.

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Wacko poster was here. Don't lump me in with that damn fool Winston (Winston -
catch some rays, man)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!unipalm!uknet!comlab.ox.ac.uk!oxuniv!jdporter
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 92 17:06:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>
>>Rick (Slater):
>
>>I'm still waiting for your proof that humans created all the
>>crop circles with 2x4s...
>
>>In fact, could you prove that humans created ANY of them?  Now guys,
>>let's have him figure out this one by himself...
>
>>Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans.
>
>>Rick
>
>>--
>>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
>>[e-mail]       |
>>AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time
>>r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.
>
>
> *****
> Crop circles are created by alien spaceships...Not little old men carrying
> big sticks...Anyone who believes anything else is a nitwit and a fool...
> Linda Moulton Howe ran the designs through the computer of the guy who
> figured out Stonehenge, and they discovered mathematical equations, some
> of which we don't have...But I suppose those two dweebs know higher math,
> right??  SURE!!!
>
>     Gary Stollman


What precisely do you mean by 'equations, some of which we don't have'?  This
sounds very peculiar to me - after all you can make up as many equatioons as
you like, which nobody previously will have 'had' (if by that you mean wrote
down') but there's little chance they'll make sense - and anyway, no equation
does make sende without a context (unless it's something like 2 = 21 - 4)

Julian Porter
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 92 14:23:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
Lines: 112

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>      Subject: People Evacuation Part 1.
>              It seems that in the training that has been given to me
>      in the past by the space people one of its purposes was to
>      make me a person who would be aboard a craft and help others
>      to be calm in case of a personnel evacuation.

You say it seems to you?These space people have been giving you all this
training and haven't even yet told you what the training is in aid of?  Anyway,
what the hell is a personell evacuation, and why should one be done?  What
space people?

>  I'm not saying
>      there is going to be one at the present time but if there
>      ever was one I'd be ready.

Ready for what,to calm everybody and tell them it'sd quite all right to rungo
into a strange space-ship?

>              If you will, please let me conduct you on an imaginary
>      evacuation.  First of all you should hope to be invited to be
>      taken aboard by some people that are from local planets for
>      they say Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and
>      Pluto do have human life in their appropriate form (you notice
>      they didn't say they looked exactly like us especiallly).

(1) Who are the they who say it?
(2) If it is human life which doesn't look like us in particular it isn't
really human by a normal definition.  Anyway, let us examine these planets
named one by one: Venus has an atmosphrer consisting mostly of sulphuric acid,
at enormous pressures and temperatures (I'd love to live there!) Mars has a
very thin atmosphere and no surface water (certainly little plant life, as the
O2 level is too low), Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are gaseous planets,
so by the time you reached any 'solid' surface the pressue would be in to
millions of atmospheres, so survival might be quite difficult.  As for Pluto,
it is small and cold and a long way away - any water based life form would die
quite unpleasantly on exposure there, so how could 'humans' possibly live
there?

>              The Brotherhood has on call over 11,000,000 craft the
>      last I heard.

Who they?  Incidentally, wouldn't these 11000000 shiups have been noticed by
now when they bombed about the solar system?  Or is it just that there's a
massive conspiracy on the part of all the astronomers and anybody else who
happens to look into the sky every now and then to not let us know about it?

>  They range from 30 foot shuttles (our word for
>      it) to motherships 360 feet long.  One mother carries about 50
>      shuttles.  Then they have ships that are called arks like the
>      seven cities of Shan.  Some ships have names such as Transvaal
>      and one called Phoenix.

I didn't know the aliens came from South Africa.

>  The next are minature worlds like the
>      New Jerusalem which is 1,500 miles square, but then I'm getting
>      into religion.

Indeed, a very true statement, you do indeed seem to have erected a religion
based around the idea of aliens - may I ask how many of your visions are a
result of faith and how many of actually certifiable physical experience (and
why not give us some of the evidence to prove these experiences of yours,like
an interview with one of your trainers, or something like that?)

>              There are two or more ways to get picked up.  The first
>      is teleportation.  It's best to stand still with your two hands
>      together pointed straight up.  This will cut down on the reac-
>      tion your body may have to the  magnetic fild that is used to
>      pick you up.

Uh?  This son't sound like telkeportation to me boyo.  You appear to be saying
that people are physically lifted into the ships.

>?  The second way is like you going into Noah's Ark.

What, you mean paired off?  Why Noah's ark, why not the QE2 or the Titanic or
something like that?

>              This will be a lot like taking a trip aboard an air line
>      such as The Alaskian Air Line.  You may be greeted by a person
>      like myself from Earth who will calm you down and tell you
>      where to go.
>  I'll introduce you to some very nice space people
>      who will be taking you to a place that will be commensurante
>      with your present developement.

Well frankly, your space people can go **** themselves if they think they're
going to go asround telling me what my level of development is - anyway,
judging from their taste in humans, I'm not sure that we'd get on.
'commensurate with my present devlopment' my foot.  I'll be astonished if they
can find antwhere in this Solar system commensurate with our physical bodies
for starters.


>              That's all for now.
>              I'll leave you with this saying;  I have heard a saying
>      on Earth that is we ever went to another planet and found
>      another type of people or creatures that that were less
>      intelligent than we are we would ??? them.

I don't like to speculate on what has been censored here.

>>              This is being  posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I
>      am not Don.  Don is not me.

Very gnomic, I must say.

This is being posted by Julian Porter for Julian Porter and with his full
knowledge and consent (I think) - any opinions expressed in it are clearly
therefore not his own.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:21:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <c8=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 31

In article <c8=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
[...]
>
>I found it interesting how the secrets are kept, and John Lear cites the
>example that for 200 years the knowledge that the earth orbited the sun
>was kept from the masses by the church.

Yeah, but then they were just about the only ones who could read,
write, or publish.  It's just not a fair comparison.

>This is an example, but modern day
>stuff is much more scary:
>
>RECIPE FOR A COVER-UP
>
>1) paranoid fantasy
>2) paranoid fantasy
>3) paranoid fantasy
>4) paranoid fantasy
>5) paranoid fantasy
>6) paranoid fantasy
>7) paranoid fantasy
>
>I could go on and on...
>but I won't .
>Jeff-

Jeff - are you maybe Gary Stollman's long lost brother (clone?)  I
dunno, his stuff rambles more but IMHO it's lots more fun to read.

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bonfire
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 10:44:55 GMT
Lines: 21

Craig Becker ([e-mail]) wrote:
:
: Unfortunately, Cheney's book read (to me, anyway) as an exercise in
: unabashed hero worship. I personally don't believe all of the claims
: she made for Tesla. However, there are other (better) biographies of
: Tesla out there, and they do tend to back up the stories you mentioned
: in your post.
:
: Craig

What books are these?  Where can I get them?  I have only read Cheney's book,
which I took with a grain of salt.  I'd love to build a Colorado Springs
Tesla coil!  I'm going out to Denver shortly, does any of his facility out
there still exist?

--

Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
[e-mail]


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!jkc3
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:38:19 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Distribution: alt
References: <[e-mail]|
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <n0=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

To charles

   First, this was just an example of one item that was unknown to
the President.

   Secondly, it does belong here, because it shows that even the
Almighty President (*cough cough*) may not know alot about any Alien
coverups.

   Thirdly, I think you need to read more carefully and get the
main point of an article, and not just one or 2 statements.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11507 alt.alien.visitors:8882 sci.skeptic:29607
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 06:51:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 22

Dear Thinkers: Very profound questions we are getting now, but first
remember this is OOBE wednesday, same time same channel. If all goes well
I'll be at the property I'm in the process of buying on the south side of
the mountain Mt. Shasta (not the town of Mt. Shasts). I'll be at about
4,960 feet elevation near a place called Widow Springs at a place called
Three Trees. Our place is on Widow Springs Road and Easy Street. It's
called The Winston Retreat. Everybody is welcome. I am on the same street
as a person whoes kin folks also own a castle over near San Simion, Calif.
I believe they have something to do with newspapers. Our place is not
exactly a castle but more like a wooden housing unit that is in Yosimite.
The question was asked, Who are these people who are doing this picking
up of people"? These people go by many names, The Confederation of Planets,
The Ashtar Command and the space people. In my opinion everyone here has
lived before and more than likely everyone here on earth has been part
of this group before. I refer to them as my space brothers and sisters.
Please don't worry about going to Venus in your present body because if
you are taken to Venus your molecular structure will be changed so that
you will be conducive to that inviorment and take my word for it that
area in the fourth dimension is very nice. In closing Big Al I'm in the
process of getting the picture you mentioned made but I will wait till
you move if you like. I hope this finds you all well.
John Winston. When I take off (in the physical) I'll be gone till tuesday.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 13:42:32 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>...and I am their friend, and I'd like to invite any greys who are
>reading this who might happen to be in the vicinity of Austin to
>stop on by sometime soon...for some chili. ;-)
>
>Craig

Hey Craig,

After the Greys chow down at your place send 'em on over to Albuquerque
to my place for a big party we're having this Friday.

Ithlial

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Latest NAICCR info on crop circles
Keywords: north america, crop circles, NAICCR
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:33:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Lines: 40

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>       1992 North American Crop Circles and/or UGMs
>>           Reported to NAICCR as of 24 August 1992

>>920808    Strathclair, Manitoba
>>- a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars (a
>>circle with an attached arrow pointing away from it) was discovered in
>>a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main circle was 28 feet in
>>diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.  The wheat was flattened
>>counterclockwise.  In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the
>>circle.  The arrow pointed on a bearing of 260 degrees.
>>Source:  NAICCR
>>
>>920815    Ipswich, Manitoba
>>-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
>>discovered just east of Ipswich.  The main circle was elliptical, with
>>axes 26 and 24.5 feet.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  The
>>arrow pointed on a bearing of 65 degrees.
>>Source:  NAICCR
>>920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
>>-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
>>discovered west of Strathclair.  The main circel was 24 feet in
>>diameter.  The wheat was flattened in a counterclockwise fashion.  The
>>arrow pointed on a bearing of 120 degrees.
>>Source:  NAICCR


>Did any of the investigators think of calculating what single point
>the three arrows are pointing to?  (if any)

We sure did.  The arrows did not converge, but pointed in completely
different directions.  Sheesh.  Give us SOME credit!  The arrows also
did not point at any notable landmarks, geological features or
Native/aboriginal structures.  Of course, if you extended the arrows
far enough, they'd reach some crop formations! 8*)

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 07:04:54 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear People: The question was asked, "Did the days of darknes happen"?
They did not happen. It appears that some of these channels like Hatonn
when they talk through Dharma like to get people stirred up, and upset
so that the people will change their ways. It doesn't make much sense
to me. When Hatonn talks through Mr. Miller and the Solar Cross he sounds
like a very nice guy. I went to a person called Gloria and she asked
her space friend what he thought about this and he gave a pretty good
answer. I'm having a hard time finding that information now (I mislaided
it).
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11509 alt.alien.visitors:8886
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 07:53:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 25

Dear People: In the small town of Mt. Shasta City, Calif. there is an
organization call the I AM Group or something to that effect. Now no
matter what I say about this group they are probubly going to get mad
at me for saying it, so what else is new. This group was started by a
person by the name of Mr. Ballard who then used the pen name of
Godfrey King (not the person who was beaten up by the cops in L.A.)
Mr. Ballard came to the town of Mt. Shasta and took a trip on the sides
of the mountain Mt. Shasta. He came in contact with a very wonderful
person called Saint Germain. These two people came in contact with
eachother on the sides of Mt. Shasta at a place called by some people
The cedars (because the short pine trees look like short cedar trees
and are wind swept). This is also near a small spring and a little
grass that happens to be the same place that I originally went to
before I ever read the material written by Godfrey King. Saint Germain
(who is what I consider to me a Master) taught Mr. King a lot of
wonderful things and took him on a lot of spiritual journeys. It all
sounds a lot like the story of the Arabian Nights but I consider it
to be true. I've read a lot of the material that is still put out
by the organization. They have a bookstore on the main street of
Mt. Shasta City. They put on a play most every year about the life of
Jesus and I've seen it. It's a good production. They also have a
radio program on sunday morning over the local radio station.
If I attempted to join this organization they would probubly kick
me out because I'm a loaner.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11510 alt.alien.visitors:8887
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
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From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:14:11 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear People: In the small town of Mt. Shasta City, Calif. there is an
|> organization call the I AM Group or something to that effect. Now no
|> matter what I say about this group they are probubly going to get mad
|> at me for saying it, so what else is new. This group was started by a
|> person by the name of Mr. Ballard who then used the pen name of
|> Godfrey King (not the person who was beaten up by the cops in L.A.)
|> Mr. Ballard came to the town of Mt. Shasta and took a trip on the sides
|> of the mountain Mt. Shasta. He came in contact with a very wonderful
|> person called Saint Germain. These two people came in contact with
|> eachother on the sides of Mt. Shasta at a place called by some people
|> The cedars (because the short pine trees look like short cedar trees
|> and are wind swept). This is also near a small spring and a little
|> grass that happens to be the same place that I originally went to
|> before I ever read the material written by Godfrey King. Saint Germain
|> (who is what I consider to me a Master) taught Mr. King a lot of
|> wonderful things and took him on a lot of spiritual journeys. It all
|> sounds a lot like the story of the Arabian Nights but I consider it
|> to be true. I've read a lot of the material that is still put out
|> by the organization. They have a bookstore on the main street of
|> Mt. Shasta City. They put on a play most every year about the life of
|> Jesus and I've seen it. It's a good production. They also have a
|> radio program on sunday morning over the local radio station.
|> If I attempted to join this organization they would probubly kick
|> me out because I'm a loaner.
                        ^^^^^^



When do you have to be returned?


Mike


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!pellns.alleg.edu!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Too secret for the US President's eyes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Allegheny College
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:08:08 GMT
Lines: 7


> Moral: Don't fuck with scientists working for the military-industrial
>        complex, even if you're the president. They know what's best for
us.
>
   Actually, you shouldn't fuck with them because they make all the BIG
toys they millitary only has wet-dreams about.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: shared databases, in
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:57:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnum.convex.com
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Blackwell) writes:
>Do you have any details of any research or books drawing the analogy
>between the current belief in "greys", UFOS, etc, to that of elves and
>other explinations of things that appear unexplainable?  There appears to
>be an antiscience theme to nearly all UFO abductions, and with the
>believers of such. I am interested in researching this.

Check out any of the books by Jacques Vallee.  You can probably find at
least one or two of them in your city library if you live in a large city.
His "Dimensions" is a brief history of folk-lore on elves and fairies which
is compared and contrasted with UFO reports.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Are we an experiment ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:00:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 75


    Anyway, having dragged you through all this,and you having
    actually read it, is it not possible that we are the galactic
    version of the Simpsons !?  We sure fit the bill : Very
    average, small planet with declining civilisation contains
    puny, destructive race who think they are alone.  Hobbies :
    destroying their own planet, and/or destroying each other
        love eradicating animal species etc.

    We must be the funniest thing this side of Alpha Centrauri !

... since we (or at least I) have no experience with civilizations on
other planets, I cannot really judge whether our planet is "average".

   However, I do have problems with the "declining civilization"
comments.  Declining in what way?  By at least some measures, this
isn't so.  For instance, in energy production/consumption (whatever
you may think of that), the global civilization is growing steadily.
Use of non-native (i.e. sweat of the brow) energy sources allows more
food to be grown, more education to occur, etc.  More people are alive
today than ever before (to a certain extent, a sign that there is more
food.)  The very act of city-building requires enough "free labor"
(that is, people not out growing or hunting food) to do so.  Perhaps
you should state your measurements of "civilization".

   Anyway, I would suspect that given the average life-span of humans,
an "observer race" would be amazed, and not disgusted or even
condescendingly amused, at the progress human-kind has made.  From the
pony express to mach 3 aircraft (and television, and telephones,
and...) in only 100 years (3 generations)?  From electric lights to
landing on the moon in only 100 years?  From the ships that require
sails (or oars) to move to the computer you're reading this on now in
less than 200?  Pretty amazing, really.

   Human-kind's aggressive streak (which is pretty wide, we'll all
agree) is part of the cause of this remarkable growth.  Competition
amongst nations, corporations, and individuals drives everyone to
achieve more, to do more.  Is this bad?  Well, maybe.  But
civilization of any sort implies the ability to use force to protect
one's own group, and grow as required, to prosper, to survive.  (New
elements of a civilization, for instance the ability to travel to
other star systems cannot merely be wished into existance.)

   As for the rich helping the poor, it is often more complex than
just the rich giving the poor stuff.  For instance, currently in
Somalia, food and medical shipments are often stolen by Somalis
themselves (that is, criminals within Somalia) before it can reach the
people it is intended for.  Whose fault is that?  The rich countries?
Why?  The starving Somalis?  Why?  What should the rich countries do -
impose "order" by force (by imposing a military/political solution)?
Why?  If, as some say, the Japanese are making cars that are turning
rich (relatively) people in the US (workers in Detroit) into poor
people, is that rich vs. rich and should be ignored?  The individuals
involved would not agree...  If population growth (for whatever
reason) is partial cause for starvation in a poor country, who needs
to change - the rich, by giving more, or the poor, by having fewer
children?  How do you convince the poor farmer, who needs many sons to
tend his land in his old age that he shouldn't have them?  How do you
convince the "rich" that they have to give away stuff no matter how
many people they have to subsidize?  Its thorny, to be sure, and not
really solvable easily.


   If you're talking spirituality, spiritual growth can only really
come when you know where your next meal is coming from.  Human-kind is
progressing, I think -- certainly we do not live in a Nirvana, but we
are going somewhere, and in my opinion it will be a better place.  If
one looks at a longer trend than, say, the last 12 years (which has
seen amazing progress as well), one might come to different
conclusions than you do; but certainly if aliens are watching us,
I suspect they're more likely to take the "long view".



Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!9051467f
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Yes, Yes. This is getting interesting.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:44:28 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 25

From having been told that my thoughts on aliens were the most coherent thing
someone has heard in weeks to being classified as a nutcase - WOW! I like this,
this is *F*U*N*!
Listen, dolt, stop reading posts at random. Go through them all from the start
so you can enter discussions with all the background you can. If the first of
the thread is not there, then go with what you have and say so in yout first
few posts.
I suggest to people that they read the cleaned up version of So much
romanticism before putting me alongside the likes of Winston and Stollman.

Young?                 Yes
'Energetic'?            Yes
Wise in the Ways of The World?    Give me time - I'm asking questions always
Nutcase?                No way Jose!

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be disappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11512 alt.alien.visitors:8892
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!rice!RICEVM1.RICE.EDU!LINSCOT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Rice University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:10:54 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:

>
>Dear People: In the small town of Mt. Shasta City, Calif. there is an
>organization call the I AM Group or something to that effect...

[much stuff deleted]


>If I attempted to join this organization they would probubly kick
>me out because I'm a loaner.
>John Winston.

  OK, I'm slow... I just noticed that there is only one letter difference
between newage and sewage!!!
                                               - Steve -

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!wce2
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:12:20 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
Lines: 23

One of my moles in Omaha, Nebraska, sent me a chain letter that he picked
up there (it comes with instructions to make 30 copies to post, mail to
politicians, hand out in the streets, etc.).  It alleges to give a 6-stage
plan engineered by aliens to set up a 4th Reich of Nazis by January 2000.
First stage was the LA riots; 2nd will be riots in other major cities; 3rd,
Pres. Bush will call in the United Nations, and all private means of
communicating info (e.g., PCs and photocopy machines) will be confiscated;
4th, the US Govt. will admit that Zeta Reticulans have landed; 5th, the stock
market will collapse; 6th, Bush will be assassinated and "Dan Quale" will
become President (I suppose that's the way he'll spell his name by then).

All this is given on the authority of a Mr. Michael Younger, who claims to
have been a member of the top-secret COM-12 group and a scientist at the
US-ET base at Groom Lake.  He supposedly laid out this info at a UFO
convention at Arcadia, California, on July 4, 1992.

Anybody else get this chain letter or know anything about this bird?  (Is he
Condor or Falcon?)

Bill Ellis
FOAFtale News
Penn State, Hazleton

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: in-body-experience #2
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:57:35 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: 147.34.4.19
Organization: Information Services
Lines: 63

Part #2  The energy plane
Thanks for the responses.

The goal has always been definition.
The best question gets the best answer.
Dreams are the preferred drug of addiction for existence.

Like any infant I developed, however, because I had a body of nearly 14 years,
I was expected to have "normal" values and awarenesses.  I learned how to act
"normal" (almost); self-defense or self preservation.  I created a template
(personality) that I would activate whenever I felt it in my best interests to
appear "normal".
I read the encyclopedia Britannica, several dictionaries and thesauruses. The
body, now 17 years old (1966) and quite experienced (expelled from Kent Stat
University three times in less than 2 years) was/is independent of what I call
"me".  It would be many years before I discover the awareness I now maintain.
Early on, I actually believed, that my thoughts animated the body.  Now it is
very clear otherwise.  The chemistry of existence is quite determinant.  Life
is a guess, the ego an approximation, the rest is in our minds.  One of the
first illusions I confronted was: "I, the mind/me am important/critical to the
success of this body/life."  This illusion  was/is particularly thorny.  The
lower brain (sub-conscious/un-conscious) runs the show.  And it has an interest
in shiny bright things, especially the bright shiny thing that a
personality/conscious produces in the brain.  The lower brain is the pack rat
of intelligence.

My favorite model for existence is the energy plane.  I first applied it to the
brain.  I imagine it to be like a sheet of graph paper.  The energy plane is
net value is always "zero".  However, mountains and holes are possible as are
storms.  A common storm happens in the vision centers of the brain.  The net
change from "zero" is translated into images.  The quality of the translation
is a function of the definition (grid) used.  All organism have default grids.
These grids (templates) can be impressed upon the brain and will produce
predictable/known behaviors/interpretations/perceptions.  Default templates are
often Archetypes.
Mountains and holes (valleys) are formed by modulating the plane.  This permits
travel between different planes.  Some mountains arise from lower planes and
are thrust through the upper planes.  This produces "normal" behaviors and the
consensus reality we perceive.


The physical reality bounded by space and time forms the base plane.  All other
planes result above this plane.  Humans as example begin to appear at level 3.
Human consciousness happens around level 6.  Art happens around level 10.  By
modulation any energy domain/level can be explored.  Most often this means a
loss of self (the attachment to form).  We (all of all) share the lower
domains.  At the lower levels differentiation is limited.  There our union can
be complete.  However, the human consciousness generally falls asleep on the
way.  It certainly is possible to achieve.  It just takes discipline and
determination.

Recipe for existence.
1)    Take space and time.  Mix well
2)    Add energy
3)    Add value.        (opportunity, advantage)
4)    Take the precipitate and add meaning    (purpose)
5)    The resultant chemistry will be 70-80% autonomous.

Bliss is an option, that must be manually selected.




Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:10:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 31



For those of you that are interested in the life and times of Tesla the
"International Tesla Society" and Tesla Museum are base/located here in
Colorado Springs.  You can write or call to this address/phonenumber


International Tesla Society
17 East Las Vegas
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80903

Phone [phone]

Sorry I do not have or know of an 800 number

They recently and there international convention here.  I attend part of it
and I was very impresive.  Tesla was a genius to say the least.

Steve

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11519 alt.alien.visitors:8896
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!boulder!tigger!bear
From: [e-mail] (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:52:05 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott) writes:
>  OK, I'm slow... I just noticed that there is only one letter difference
>between newage and sewage!!!
>                                               - Steve -

And god spelled backwards is dog.

And with only additional one letter difference god becomes fog.  Or log.
Or hog.  (Does this explain the prohibition against eating pork?)  And
an 'r' and get a frog.

And of course nobody should forget with a single letter shift (and minor
language change) god is death (tod, dead (adj) in German).


I hope Steve was just making a _really_ dumb joke, but it is that time of
year when the kiddies return.  Oh joy.  (Classes started at CU this
morning).


Bear Giles
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:53:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 128

I have received this in the physical mail. I understand others have
received this too on both coastlines. If you have I am interested in
hearing from you...this is a mosty strange occurrence.

Len



----- Begin Included Message -----
----- Begin Included Message -----

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:48:02 EDT
Subject:ufo chain letter
Status: RO

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR IS ABOUT TO BE INCITED IN THE UNITED STATES! YOU AND
           YOUR LOVED ONES ARE IN ACUTE DANGER! RACE RIOTS AND SLAUGHTER
           OF AMERICANS WILL BE THE FIRST SIGN!

THIS IS NO JOKE!  On July 4,1992, at a UFO convention in Arcadia, California,
Mr. Michael Younger, a member of the super-secret COM-12 group and a scientist
who worked at Groom Lake, Area 51 in Nevada, stunned the audience of over
200 people with the following incredible information, which, if true, endangers
the lives and freedoms of every American, and eventually the entire world.
Here is the amazing scenario of the planned events:

    Beginning in August of this year, 1991, a conspiracy long at work behind
the scenes of our government, will make its first over move.  These conspirators
plan to create a dictatorship in the United States, suspend our Constitution,
(instituting the New World Order) and attempt to confiscate all guns and
firearms in American homes.  Stage 1 being to create "race riots" in major U.S.
cities such as New York, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, etc.; these to begin
in August.  This will be preceded by a month of subliminal programming via TV
and other media to condition the people for civil war in the United States.
The accent will be on rap records wuch as BODY COUNT released by Time-Warner
(a Rockefeller Corporation) by musicians "Ice Tea" and "Sister Solj" whose
lyrics in such songs as COP KILLERS are designed to inflame and polarize its
listeners.  These rap songs contain such lines as:
"Kill white policemen," "kill the pigs", "kill whitey", and "Why not kill whitey
if he can kill us?" etc.

    In August Stage 2, code-named "Operation Hot August Nights" will take
effect. Special agents of the conspiracy, masquerading as police, will open fire
on minorities, namely Black Americans and Hipanics and Orientals.  Other agents
will set off incendiary bombs as they did recently in the Los Angeles riots,
which was essentially was a "test case" that surpassed the expectations of the
conspirators.  These special agents, masquerading as police, massacre will
massacre Blacks and other minorities and fire at the real policement.  This
brings in more police and the riots escalate. "Skin heads" and other gangs,
already fully armed, join the fray.  The real police, vastly outnumbered, can-
not handle the rioting.  The National Guard is called in and fired upon by these
special agents who are also masquerading as gang members, who will enlist other
gangs aid to fight the police and national guardsmen.  These riots continue with
many minority American slaughtered in major cities.

    Stage 3: Sometime in September, President Bush call in United Nations
troops to squash the riots and restore law and order. American troops had in-
dicated that they did not wish to fight against American civilians.  Bush
executes Executive Orders, ALREADY IN EFFECT,(this is the New World Order folks)
which now give the UN forces complete rights and freedom to enter American homes
to confiscate all devices that are capable of communicating information, which
includes video cameras, VCR's, computers, mimeographs and anything that can
print, copy machines, etc.  These troops are furnished certain lists of names,
particularly those know as "Patriots" and these patriots and their families
are rounded up first, and if not executed on the spot, are sent to any of the
13 concentration camps now fully activated in the United Atates.  There is
nobody left to tell what really happened.  Curious neighbors will be told it
was a justified "drug raid".  Those who escape to the hills and mountains
are hunted down by "search and destroy" troops, specially trained for mountain
warfare.  During September all borders will be closed down, as well as airports.
No one is allowed to leave the United States.

    Stage4: In October an "official" announcement will be carried live on
TV, that extraterrestial aliens, probably Zeta Reticuli 'Greys' have invaded
the Earth, with some actual aliens introduced on the show.  (This is actually
a fake invasion). The aliens have been on Earth for over 50 years, made
treaties and agreements with our governments; (all over the world) and there
are millions of them in secret underground complexes such as Dulce, New Mexico
which are sesponsible for the abduction of American children and citizens as
well as the cattle mutilations documented in books and on TV, such as the
recent special "Intruders". (these special program are no accident) This
announcement will cause the entire world to mobilize under UN suppervision
to fight the "invaders" ( a very bad joke!!!!)

    During November, the chaos continues and more UN troops pour into
the United States, mostly mercenaries who have fought in African nations and
other 'hot spots' previously.  (The butchery of these troops is well docu-
mented).

    Stage 5: In December a well-planned "crash" of the stockmarket will
occur, a dramatic drop to the at least 1500 on the Dow Jones Industrial Average.
This event planned to further weaken, panic and confuse the population.

      Stage 6: In February or March 1993, President Bush will be assassinated by
by the conspirators and Vice President Dan Quale will be come President of the
United States, (this is an option if Bush moves too slowly). The Constitution
of the United States is suspended and the people are now living under martial
law in a totally fascist state.

WHO ARE THESE CONSPIRATORS????  According to Mike Younger, at the end of WW II,
Nelson Rockefellar brought 300 high Nazi party officials from Germany illegally
into the U.S., with permission.  As of today it is believed there are now 1.6
million Nazis in the U.S., many high in government and major corporation, such
as Atlantic Richfield in New Jersey. Incredibly, these Nazi facists are
attempting to set up a "4th Reich" to continue the thousand-year plan of Adolph
Hitler, with the eventual intent to eliminate "non Aryan" people such as Jews,
Blacks and other 'dissidents'.  In January, 2000, when the real alien invasion
occurs, the planet will be officially turned over to the alien invaders, and
the Nazi rulers expect to get 25% of the Earth for themselves.

The writers of this document did not originate the above material, but are
simply passing this information along to you to do with what you feel is nec-
essary.  We have no way of knowing that these things will happen( we hope and
pray they do not), but is any of the above should occur, you can rest assured
the balance of this evil scenario will follow.  Their two main immediate goals
are to disarm American citizens and suspend our Constitution.

URGENT: MAKE 30 COPIES AND MAIL TO MEDIA, POLITICANS, CHURCHES, ORGANIZATIONS.
POST ON BULLETIN BOARDS, PASS OUT TO CITIZENS IN THE STREETS! TIME IS RUNNING
OUT!!!!  ACT NOW!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----- End Included Message -----

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:06:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 17


    [e-mail] (Bill Ellis) writes:
    Anybody else get this chain letter or know anything about this
    bird?  (Is he Condor or Falcon?)

... yup, its "made the rounds" (on alt.alien.visitors, it was passed
on by Don Allen on 31 July, 1992).  It was supposed to have originated
by a "Cosmic Awareness" group in Washington State.  (The one that
begins, "THIS IS NO JOKE!", right?)  Well, we'll know for certain in
October, when "Stage 4" (public announcement of alien invasion) is
supposed to happen.

   BTW, "Stage 2" (more riots, mass shootings, conspiracy agents
masquerading as police, etc.) has only 5 days left to be carried out
"on schedule" -- it is listed as starting "in August".

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!crb7q
From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:16:30 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>
>Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:48:02 EDT
>Subject:ufo chain letter
>Status: RO
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR IS ABOUT TO BE INCITED IN THE UNITED STATES! YOU AND
>           YOUR LOVED ONES ARE IN ACUTE DANGER! RACE RIOTS AND SLAUGHTER
>           OF AMERICANS WILL BE THE FIRST SIGN!
[stuff deleted]
>
>    In August Stage 2, code-named "Operation Hot August Nights" will take
>effect. Special agents of the conspiracy, masquerading as police, will open fire
>on minorities, namely Black Americans and Hipanics and Orientals.  Other agents
>will set off incendiary bombs as they did recently in the Los Angeles riots,
>which was essentially was a "test case" that surpassed the expectations of the
>conspirators.  These special agents, masquerading as police, massacre will
>massacre Blacks and other minorities and fire at the real policement.  This
>brings in more police and the riots escalate. "Skin heads" and other gangs,
>already fully armed, join the fray.  The real police, vastly outnumbered, can-
>not handle the rioting.  The National Guard is called in and fired upon by these
>special agents who are also masquerading as gang members, who will enlist other
>gangs aid to fight the police and national guardsmen.  These riots continue with
>many minority American slaughtered in major cities.

    I note that the 'conspirators' are running out of time to begin
    in August.  Don't you just hate it when conspiracies don't begin
    on time?

                            dale bass
--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11525 alt.alien.visitors:8900
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!rice!RICEVM1.RICE.EDU!LINSCOT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 1992 20:28:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:

>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott) writes:
>>  OK, I'm slow... I just noticed that there is only one letter difference
>>between newage and sewage!!!
>>                                               - Steve -
>
>And god spelled backwards is dog.
>
>
>I hope Steve was just making a _really_ dumb joke,

Yes, Bear, I am famous locally for my *REALLY* dumb jokes.  However, that
was also a comment on what I think of this newage stuff.  Just as John is
free to post it, I am free to comment on it.  BTW, the kiddies *ARE* back in
school, but we have had all summer to get ready for them. :-)

                                               - Steve -
>Bear Giles
>[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!anson
From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 21:48:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Well, August is nearly over and I haven't heard of these widespread
race riots yet.

But there's still hope, the month still has a few days left.
--

Anson Kennedy                                                   [e-mail]
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

"If you don't watch the violence,    \           "If I had been the Virgin Mary,
you'll never get desensitized to it."  \                I would have said 'No.'"
-Bart Simpson                            \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsl!conty
From: [e-mail] (Conty III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:18:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>
> I have a document signed by the clone of my former case manager in
> Tallahassee.  [...]  I am NOT the only one to have clones replace
> my family and friends.  When I spoke to a girl at Florida Junior
> College in 1985 on the inter-terminal talk system on the Plato
> system at FSU, she told me that 7 of her friends and her parents
> had been taken.

1)  If you were replaced by a clone that had all your memories, how can
    you tell?  How do you know YOU'RE not a clone?

2)  How do you know that girl wasn't one of "them"?  How do you know we,
    the posters and readers of this newsgroup, aren't clones?

3)  If you know so much about "them", would it make sense for them to
    allow you to expose them on a public network read by thousands of
    people?

[Serve the above with smileys "al gusto"]
--
                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
                  [e-mail]
            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbnews!cbnewsl!conty
From: [e-mail] (Conty III)
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke???
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:22:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:
>
> Yes, cigarettes do not burn in zero gravity.

That's a GOOD one, Mr. Holmes!  :-)

I can believe that a cigarette cannot be lighted in a vacuum (no oxygen to
make it burn), but what will prevent it from burning in zero-G if it has a
suitable atmosphere?

BTW, it's not tobacco the aliens are addicted to.  I'ts POT.  :-)
--
                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
                  [e-mail]
            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11528 alt.alien.visitors:8904 sci.skeptic:29638
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:20:15 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Free Thinkers: There has been a slight change in my plans. I won't
be leaving for Mt. Shasta till about 400 AM thursday morning. My son and
I hope to explore an ice cave or sometimes called a volcanic vent that
is within 12 miles of our property. This vent extends underground a short
distance then is about one half mile long as it goes parallel with the
surface. I feel that about 10,000 people may be able to get in there in
case something happened. I hope to put some survival provisions in there
just in case.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!elc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Are we an experiment ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:48:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 5

Well lets see, we've polluted the world, used up a major fraction of many resou
rces, caused a hole in the ozone layer, we have aids and I could go on but I'm
starting to feel bad.  Yep, the aliens would be proud of us allright.

                                    ELC@SLACVM
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE> in-body-experience
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:54:44 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: 147.34.4.19
Organization: Information Services
Lines: 16

Someone stated: I am not sure what this means...
(referencing in-body-experience #2)

I am not sure either.  I suppose I could pretend that the experiences I have
had are illusionary, however, I still must live with who or what I am.  That
has been the most difficult aspect of my existence.  Some 30,000 years ago my
moment of awareness bloomed.  The spreading awareness eventually extended to
this planet Earth.  Then 20 some years ago a body became available which I was
permitted to enter.  The cost/price of being was substantial.  Now, I realize
the actual environment of existence is from within the mind, the act of
definitioning.  During my remaining few years as a human, I expect to witness
new awareness and growth in this thing I call existence.  As a catalyst, this
is my purpose. As life this is my joy.
I have many stories I would like to share, however, time is not yet ready.
Perhaps soon.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newsroom.utas.edu.au![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Chris Stapelberg)
Subject: Re:Re: Are we an experiment ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:02:22 GMT
Lines: 122

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>
> Hi Charles!
Great letter, man, thanks!
You have raised some very good, logical arguments in favour of
the human race.
You write:

> ... since we (or at least I) have no experience with civilizations on
> other planets, I cannot really judge whether our planet is "average".
>
I make the following assumptions when I refer to us as "average":
Consider the first spark of self-awareness (i.e. intelligence)
on the one end of the spectrum and the most advanced form of (some
would call it spiritual) consciousness, i.e the total awareness and
oneness with all things, and almost paradoxically the lack of self-
interest, on the other.
Now I agree that some people are closer to one extreme than the other in
both directions, but taking a mean estimate it is safe to say that the
human race in its entirety falls somewhere in the middle ("average").

>    However, I do have problems with the "declining civilization"
> comments.  Declining in what way?

You have considered all the technological advances and intellectual
advances that human-kind have made.The peaceful ones are truly amazing,
and I would be the last to put down our progress in the last centuries.
(If I wasn't fascinated with technology you wouldn't be reading this!)
But consider the idea that technology is but the byproduct of a
boundless curiosity, an almost aggressive intelligence and a basic need
for a dynamic existance.
These qualities have served us well in getting where we are now.But
where are people now?
AS you yourself have pointed out,people are still starving.
But besides that look at what has become of our moral values:
Anyone can buy anything.
People will kill for the smallest payments (food, a few dollars, a fuck)
Love and marriage have deteriorated into custody battles and alimony
arguments.
 Some large religious groups have become either a lucrative afterlife
insurance scam or a "religious" form of Dungeons and Dragons.
At the risk of sounding like a preacher I will not go on.But you live
here too, you know the list is endless.
Now here is the point. We are declining morally, in terms of values and
integrity as a human race. Thus we are fast losing our most basic
infrastructure, the very backbone of a healthy civilisation.
And, as any chiropractor will tell you, without a healthy skeleton you're
pretty much on the decline, whether a person or a civilisation!

Time brings me to close this communication again.
I will try to answer to the rest of your letter when I can.
In the mean time, please feel free to argue the above points.

Regards,
Chris.

 Address : [e-mail]



 By at least some measures, this
> isn't so.  For instance, in energy production/consumption (whatever
> you may think of that), the global civilization is growing steadily.
> Use of non-native (i.e. sweat of the brow) energy sources allows more
> food to be grown, more education to occur, etc.  More people are alive
> today than ever before (to a certain extent, a sign that there is more
> food.)  The very act of city-building requires enough "free labor"
> (that is, people not out growing or hunting food) to do so.  Perhaps
> you should state your measurements of "civilization".
>
>    Anyway, I would suspect that given the average life-span of humans,
> an "observer race" would be amazed, and not disgusted or even
> condescendingly amused, at the progress human-kind has made.  From the
> pony express to mach 3 aircraft (and television, and telephones,
> and...) in only 100 years (3 generations)?  From electric lights to
> landing on the moon in only 100 years?  From the ships that require
> sails (or oars) to move to the computer you're reading this on now in
> less than 200?  Pretty amazing, really.
>
>    Human-kind's aggressive streak (which is pretty wide, we'll all
> agree) is part of the cause of this remarkable growth.  Competition
> amongst nations, corporations, and individuals drives everyone to
> achieve more, to do more.  Is this bad?  Well, maybe.  But
> civilization of any sort implies the ability to use force to protect
> one's own group, and grow as required, to prosper, to survive.  (New
> elements of a civilization, for instance the ability to travel to
> other star systems cannot merely be wished into existance.)
>
>    As for the rich helping the poor, it is often more complex than
> just the rich giving the poor stuff.  For instance, currently in
> Somalia, food and medical shipments are often stolen by Somalis
> themselves (that is, criminals within Somalia) before it can reach the
> people it is intended for.  Whose fault is that?  The rich countries?
> Why?  The starving Somalis?  Why?  What should the rich countries do -
> impose "order" by force (by imposing a military/political solution)?
> Why?  If, as some say, the Japanese are making cars that are turning
> rich (relatively) people in the US (workers in Detroit) into poor
> people, is that rich vs. rich and should be ignored?  The individuals
> involved would not agree...  If population growth (for whatever
> reason) is partial cause for starvation in a poor country, who needs
> to change - the rich, by giving more, or the poor, by having fewer
> children?  How do you convince the poor farmer, who needs many sons to
> tend his land in his old age that he shouldn't have them?  How do you
> convince the "rich" that they have to give away stuff no matter how
> many people they have to subsidize?  Its thorny, to be sure, and not
> really solvable easily.
>
>
>    If you're talking spirituality, spiritual growth can only really
> come when you know where your next meal is coming from.  Human-kind is
> progressing, I think -- certainly we do not live in a Nirvana, but we
> are going somewhere, and in my opinion it will be a better place.  If
> one looks at a longer trend than, say, the last 12 years (which has
> seen amazing progress as well), one might come to different
> conclusions than you do; but certainly if aliens are watching us,
> I suspect they're more likely to take the "long view".
>
>
>
> Charles
>
>
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:01:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 28

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>First stage was the LA riots; 2nd will be riots in other major cities; 3rd,

Sounds like an ordinary day in the life of the Earth to me.  Nothing
spectacular. :-)

>Pres. Bush will call in the United Nations, and all private means of
>communicating info (e.g., PCs and photocopy machines) will be confiscated;

:-) :-)  I'd like to see them try.  If they wanted to stop communication,
they'd have to shut down all phone lines, the postal service, turn the radio
and TV spectrum to mush with random noise, and confine everyone to their homes.
No need to confiscate anything, and arguably easier to acheive (not much
easier :-) .

>Anybody else get this chain letter or know anything about this bird?  (Is he
>Condor or Falcon?)

Sounds like a joke.  Someone is probably sitting at home laughing their heads
off thinking of how many people are taking it seriously.

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens that smoke???
Message-ID: <38bn_![e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:12:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Conty III) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:
>>
>> Yes, cigarettes do not burn in zero gravity.
>
>That's a GOOD one, Mr. Holmes!  :-)
>
>I can believe that a cigarette cannot be lighted in a vacuum (no oxygen to
>make it burn), but what will prevent it from burning in zero-G if it has a
>suitable atmosphere?

I rather assumed that in zero-G, smoke will not rise (it is no longer lighter
than the surrounding air), so the cigarette would light, but if kept stationary,
it would smother itself. If you waved it about, it would probably stay lit.

But if you thought smoking in an airplane was bad...

>BTW, it's not tobacco the aliens are addicted to.  I'ts POT.  :-)
>--
>                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
>            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
>                  [e-mail]
>            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 18:17:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Subject: Ruins of a 30,000 Year Old City,
   About Aug. 10, l992 I went over to Berkley, Calif. and tried to pick up me a copy of a certain magazine but it was not in so I bought
a copy of a magazine that I had never seen before (International UFO
Library Magazine Vol. 1, No.3 dated July o2, 19992). In it there was
an article or advertisement about a person called  Robert M. Stanley.
The article was titled MYSTIC MOUNTAINS Journey to the Ancient Land of Mu. This interested me so I sent him a letter to the following address Mystic Mountain Adventures, Dept. 100, 1142 Manhattan Avenue, Ste. 43, Manhattan Beach, CA. 90266,[phone]. He sent me back an information sheet and I phoned him and set up a time to go with him on one of his tours, which leave from his house in Manhattan Beach Calif. on sunday mornings at 900 AM unless a special tour is planned. It was decided that I should me

et the group at the Michael Landon Memorial Community Center in Malibu, Calif. because I was coming from Milpitas,
Calif. (north of Malibu) and the ruins of the city were near that area. The center is at the corner of Malibu Canyon Road and Pacific Coast Highway (just across from Peperdine University).
End of Part 1.
John Winston.



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 22:20:44 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear People: The question was asked, "Did the days of darknes happen"?
|> They did not happen. It appears that some of these channels like Hatonn
|> when they talk through Dharma like to get people stirred up, and upset
|> so that the people will change their ways. It doesn't make much sense
|> to me. When Hatonn talks through Mr. Miller and the Solar Cross he sounds
|> like a very nice guy. I went to a person called Gloria and she asked
|> her space friend what he thought about this and he gave a pretty good
|> answer. I'm having a hard time finding that information now (I mislaided
|> it).
|> John Winston.

Are you sure that this Miller person and this Dharma person are channeling
the same Hatonn? Maybe Dharma is channelling Hatonn's sneaky and far less
positive evil twin, Hatofff!



Leonard.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <r#cn=[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 02:34:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <p9an=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 57

Charles, your posts are enjoyable, and I liked what you had to say about
Nixon, the CIA, and Watergate.

I read a bit about JFK assasination, and most of those authors all point
to Nixon suddenly giving up, and resigning, so they try to come up with
evedence to speculate as to why this occured. Usually, Watergate is
portrayed as just the tip of an giant iceburg. They speculate a lot,
but the point here is, it's a big iceburg. Lots we can't see going on.

And look at Woodward. He is a strange individule to be sure. I would
suspect there is lots we don't know about him and his ties to intelligence
as well.

Your solilique on the state of the planet and mankind seems naive as far
as I can tell.

Most contactees report just the opposite as far as what our advanced space brothers
think about the human culture. Even if you believe such sources to be too oulandish
to respect at all, the basic ideas still ring true:

!) We have a world economy based on war/arms/drugs/chemicals to a large degree
that are all tied together in seemingly inseparable relation ships. Until world
leaders can stop wars, I can't see how any advanced race is going to be very
impressed with us in the least. Even our space exploration is little more than
sending up people in fancy Chineese rockets (invented 1000 years ago) with radiosand a sack lunch.

2) We destroy our home planet with nuclear waste/testing, pollution beyond measure,
and over-fishing the oceans and over cutting of the forests and jungles.
Our president, in his infinite wisdom, proclaims we can not stop nuclear weapons
testing.

3) We have allowed major corporate entities to take over most of the true power
in this world thru relationships with oil/petrochemical operations, banking,
, etc. that care only about profit, and have ethics that would
place secondary the well-being of most human beings on the planet.

4) All transportations systems currently in use, with few exceptions, have been
promoted by corporations that care little that they are inefficient, or pollute
the environment. This causes the poisoning of ourselves, our planet and our
oceans.

5) All the while, most of us have stood by and done little about these problems,
and united we could change most of t.
In fact, i would venture that they feel only that we have done very little spiritually,
to advance ourselves, we care only about material wealth, pleasure, and luxury,
and that we have not come close to integrating technology with spirituality,
which is the true challenge to an advancing culture. I doubt we have really
lived up to the potential that they would see so clearly of us.

Jeff-


h

q


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Message-ID: <3#[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 02:44:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 40

[e-mail] (Conty III) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>>
>> I have a document signed by the clone of my former case manager in
>> Tallahassee.  [...]  I am NOT the only one to have clones replace
>> my family and friends.  When I spoke to a girl at Florida Junior
>> College in 1985 on the inter-terminal talk system on the Plato
>> system at FSU, she told me that 7 of her friends and her parents
>> had been taken.

>1)  If you were replaced by a clone that had all your memories, how can
>    you tell?  How do you know YOU'RE not a clone?

>2)  How do you know that girl wasn't one of "them"?  How do you know we,
>    the posters and readers of this newsgroup, aren't clones?

>3)  If you know so much about "them", would it make sense for them to
>    allow you to expose them on a public network read by thousands of
>    people?

>[Serve the above with smileys "al gusto"]
>--
>                E n r i q u e  C o n t y
>            The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
>                  [e-mail]
>            Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
*****
1.  I wasn't last time I checked.
2.  She knew NOTHING of what I was talking bout' till I got into details.
3.  I've seen dumber people in my life.  And THEY ain't all that smart.

    Gary

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newsroom.utas.edu.au![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Chris Stapelberg)
Subject: Re:Re:Re: The Greys are our FRIENDS ! (Revisited)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:51:06 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater) writes:
>
> In article <[e-mail]>
> [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:
>
> >
> > Satsang with Dr. Earlyne - Creating a Superior Race
> >
> > Q: You say the aliens are abducting for the purpose of encoding a
> > superior race. Look what happened when the Germans tried that. Please
> > explain why you think it's a good thing.
> >
> My friends visit me and say hi and stay awhile. The day one of these
> "alien parents" visits me and makes friends with me is the day I will
> beleive I could ever be more than a lab rat to "alien parents".If there
> is any truth to the statement "Their seed was artificially inserted"
> then as far as I am concerned we are all nothing more than genetic
> experiments.  Channel this to your sources.
>
> Rick S.

Why are the Greys our friends ???!!!

Even if they did build us, that doesnt mean they like us !
They pitch up on our planet whenever they feel like it,
 march around the neighbourhood and disturb people in their sleep!
 Then if this isn't enough, they cause some deep psychological damage,
 disrupt everybody's life and then dont even have the gumption to
 officially make contact, never mind introducing themselves to their
 victims !

 Friends indeed !

 Chris   address [e-mail]

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!unipalm!uknet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Squire)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 03:55:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hack-Tic Magazine
Lines: 32

[e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:

> [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:

>   Backpedaling a bit, one Nikola Tesla had been in school in
> what is or was Yugoslavia, me thinks.  As part of his work he essentially
> invented the 120 volt 60 cycle AC equipment we know and love (??)
> today.  His profs all told him he was full of shit!  Tesla brought these
> ideas to the US....and went to work for Edison, who told him he was
> full of shit too - keep in mind that ol Tom had a vested interest in
> DC power transmission.

If I'm not mistaken, Tesla said 55Hz was the best compramise between
transmission loss and transformer size, while Westinghouse only
considered the transformer and not powergrids over continents and put
the figure at 130Hz.  Well we know who won!  As far as the home, it was
determined that 220-240 VAC was the best compramise between wiring guage
for the power delivered and safety.
>
>     Edison hired some folks to go around the country with some AC
> apparatus.  They'd take big hunks of red meat, attach it to the
> apparatus and then throw the switch.  The resulting frying, sizzling,
> etc. display scared the hell out of those watching.  Edison referred
> to the effect as having been "Westinghoused".
>
"Westinghoused" means fried in the electric chair as far as I know.  It
was just another trick from Edison to discredit Westinghouse by having
him design and build the 1000VAC power supply for the cruel device.
Westinghouse knew Edison was upto something but needed the money and the
device still is in use in less civilized nations.

                                                    Bill
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:8916 alt.conspiracy:18039
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 06:09:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Summary: How I discovered that the Florida government had been taken over!!
Keywords: aliens, invasion, stollman
Lines: 158


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INVASION!!!
Summary: How I discovered the Florida government had been overthrown!!!
Keywords: aliens, invasion,stollman


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INVASION!!!
Summary: How I discovered that the entire Florida government was involved...
Keywords: aliens,invasion,stollman


The day before I went to the Sheriff's Dept. in Tallahassee to speak to
someone who was supposed to tell me wht was going on, I went up to the
State Capitol to ask the Attorney General's office WHO had put a camera in
the bathrooms at TCC, and WHO these people were in my classes who were
obviously spying on me.  I walked into the office and a secretary took my
name, and asked me to have a seat.  She disappeared into the back, and I
waited.  After a few minutes, a different secretary came out, and walked
over to the desk, sat down, picked up the phone, and shouted, "HELLO,
OPERATOR, OPERATOR!!" into it.  This was obviously strange, because the
phone had not rung, and I didn't see any of the buttons lit either.  Then
she told me that the Attorney General was a VERY busy man, and didn't have
time to see me, but that if I would go over to a certain office at one of
the downtown buildings, the Director of Consumer Affairs would try to help
me.

I thought this was BS, from the moment she had shouted that into the phone
like that, but I went over to the guy's office anyways.  It was in the
basement of a building, with only a paper sign on the door.  I walked in,
and saw only two desks and a few phones.  A guy was talking on one of the
phones about how he could get lots of money running stolen cars to other
states.  He was talking REAL loud, and told me to just have a seat for a
minute.  After a minute or two, he put the phone down, and asked who I
was.  I told him, and he said LOUDLY, "Oh, you'll have to wait for the
CHIEF!!"  He invited me to sit down at the "Chief's" desk.  I did so.
After a few minutes, a guy walked in.  He was about six feet tall, with a
short mustasche, and looked like he hadn't slept in about a week.  He
ploped down in the chair across from me, slumped over the chair, and just
lay there staring at me.  After a few moments, he pulled himself upright,
looked me straight in the eyes and asked, "WHY are these people following
you?"  I was taken aback, as I had NEVER told them about that at the
Attorney General's office, I had said that at the Governor's office, where
I had gone the day before that to try to get some answers.  A
representative of the Governor, then Bob Graham, had listened to me say
that, and before I could even explain the situation to him, told me
bluntly that nobody would do that unless they had some kind of incredible
reasoning behind it, and there WAS no reason.  I found this to be an
unusual thing to say, judging from the "supposed" fact that they didn't
know me.

I almost jumped when this guy who looked like something out of a CIA spy
novel asked me that.  I said nervously, "I DON'T KNOW!!"  Then, he leaned
back in his chair and said, "Well, if they wanted to get rid of you, they
would simply have WASTED you!!"  Then he started talking a whole bunch of
unrelated drug paraphenalia-type talk, which I took to see whether I was
involved in drugs somehow.  He went on like this for a few minutes,
watching my face REAL closely, then he stopped.  He looked disgusted.  He
pratically pleaded with me, "Come on, Gary!  There must be SOME reason
these people are following you!!  Maybe you SAW something or DID
something!!  You must have done SOMETHING to piss these people off!"  I
was VERY scared about the whole conversation by now, so I merely said,
"Well, maybe I saw something!"  Then he asked me if I had ever taken down
any license numbers of the cars that were following me.  I told him I had
made a list at one time.  He suddenly sat straight up in his chair, then
leaned way out across the desk and said sharply, "I NEED that list!!"
Knowing full well what he was all about now, I merely said I didn't have
it anymore.  He really looked disgusted, and then he stood up.  He told me
he couldn't help me, but if I ever got bothered again, or saw any cars I
remembered, to give him a call and he would run the licenses.  He gave me
a card on which was printed a different name than the one he gave me, Len
Sprigling, and crossed out the name and wrote in his with a different
phone number also.  I could but guess who he REALLY was, and what he would
do to the people who had been following me around if I gave him the list.
I had NO doubt that this guy was with the CIA and that the whole thing was
a complete setup.  I was convinced of this a month later, when I walked
back into that "office" and told him I HAD the list.  He reached his hand
across the desk and said softly, "May I HAVE it??"  I told him it was in
my head, and he said, "OH!  GOOD MEMORY!!"  Then he told me he couldn't
help me, and to get the hell out of his office.  I did so, but instead of
leaving out to the street, I leaned down and took a drink of water from a
fountain near the door.  A few seconds after I had started drinking, he
and his "partner" opened the door REAL fast and looked out.  When they say
me standing there drinking, they ran back inside and slammed the door.  I
ran back to the door, only to hear them talking OVERLY loud to each
other, pretending they were busily involved in a "consumer" case.  I knew
what business they were in, though.

This convinced me that the entire Florida government had been subjegated.
When I called the INFORMATION OPERATOR from a phone at FSU, after the
failed attempt to see that officer the next day, in an attempt to get in
touch with him, she asked me, "Have you ever MET Sgt. Parramoore??"  This
was the friggin' operator asking this!  A few seconds later, two guys in
track suits carrying walkie-talkies came running up and took down the
number of the pay phone I was at.  When they started walking away, I
yelled, "YOU'RE CRAZY!!" at them, and then they broke into a trot, and ran
to a car with an antenna on it, and drove away REAL fast.  This sort of
thing would become commonplace in the days to come.  I would drive
somewhere, and a guy in a suit would pull up next to me, and get out of
the car carrying a walkie-talkie.  Everytime I would go to a pay phone,
and call a friend's house or my parents, someone would drive up with
sunglasses on, and get out carrying a walkie-talkie, and just stand there
eyeing me.  One time, I had some friends go with me when I made a call at
FSU to my parents, and they witnessed someone do just this.

The day after I tried to see Sgt. Parramoore, I went to the courthouse
looking for him.  I went up to his office, on the third floor, and walked
in.  I remembered though, what the operator had said to me the night
before, and got what I was expecting.  There was a guy in there all right,
with two secretaries, who had a uniform on with the nametag and all, but
who I soon had reason to doubt was anyone even remotely related to Sgt.
Parramore.  The moment I stepped in the door, one of the "secretaries"
said to the other one, "OH GOD!  I don't know if I can DO this!!"  Then
the two of them started picking up the phones in the office, and saying
stuff like, "Oh, Sgt. Parramoore, there's a murder out on Lake Road!!  Oh,
Sgt. Parramoore, Mr. Hanson is out on bail!!"  It was all pretend and I
knew it and I think that maybe they knew I knew it, but had to do it
anyways to make it all look good.  Sgt. "Parramoore" would respond with,
"Oh, DAMNIT!  Not AGAIN!!"  Then he asked me what MY problem was.  When I
told him "he" had told me to come by the day before, he told me he didn't
know what I was talking about, and held his finger up and said, "I'm about
THIS close to a breakdown today!!  Go on and get out of here!!"  I walked
out.  One of the "secretaries" followed me to the elevator and held it
open for me.  I told her I would wait for the next one, and she went
down.  Not as far as I would have liked though.

The next day, I decided to take matters to as far as I could go, and
called up the Secret Service in Jacksonville.  I told the agent who
answered the phone the kinds of stuff that had been happening to me, but
he was reluctant to offer any help.  He told me that they only dealt with
threats to the President's life.  So I told him what my "classmate" had
said about a "plot to kill the President."  He said quickly, "Well, you
just said the MAGIC WORD, Gary!!"  He told me he would call me back the
next morning and get all the details, and for me to make notes to myself
to remind myself of all that had taken place so he could get it straight.

The next morning, I waited for him to call, but after two hours had gone
by past the time he had told me, I decided to call the office myself.
This time, I got a different agent, who asked me what my name was.  He
immediately told me that I was mistaken, and that they weren't interested
anymore.  I asked him if I could speak to the agent I had talked to the
day before, and he told me that he had gone on vacation.  When I pushed
the point, he told me I was crazy and to go check into a mental hospital,
and then he hung up.

When I told this last part to the people on GEnie, one girl begged me not
to write any more of my story, because this part had scared her to death.
But it is the TRUTH...



--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 06:33:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <p9an=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <r#cn=[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 151


    [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
    I read a bit about JFK assasination, and most of those authors
    all point to Nixon suddenly giving up, and resigning, so they
    try to come up with evedence to speculate as to why this occured.

... yeah, I've read some of it, and it doesn't ring true for me.  A
conspiracy with Nixon at its core would not have killed JFK and left
Johnson around (the conspirators could not have known that LBJ's
presidency would self-destruct 5 years later - in 1962 Nixon himself
announced the end of his political life; he was only saved by the rise
of Goldwater in 1964 (its complicated.))  A conspiracy to benefit
Nixon in 1963 just doesn't add up -- and making judgements based on
what happened later (things that participants could not have known)
doesn't help the case.  If Nixon was merely "in on it", why would
Nixon join a conspiracy that could not possibly (from his point of
view, in 1963) benefit him?  But enough of this.

    !) We have a world economy based on war/arms/drugs/chemicals
    to a large degree that are all tied together in seemingly
    inseparable relation ships. Until world leaders can stop wars,
    [etc]

... "stopping wars" is a pleasant thing to say, but it is not so easy
to do.  How, for instance, should the war in what was Yugoslavia be
stopped, since none of the participants seem to *want* it to stop?
Impose (by force) a solution?  How is a war to end a war good?
Do we kill for peace?  Shaky ground.  (Convincing anyone that they
have had "enough vengeance" is not easy either.)

    Even our space exploration is little more than sending up
    people in fancy Chineese rockets (invented 1000 years ago)
    with radiosand a sack lunch.

... I think you should perhaps go back and look at how modern rockets
work.   A chinese rocket could get the Voyager to Titan?  Put Viking
on Mars?  Nice trick!

    2) We destroy our home planet with nuclear waste/testing,
    pollution beyond measure, and over-fishing the oceans and over
    cutting of the forests and jungles.  Our president, in his
    infinite wisdom, proclaims we can not stop nuclear weapons
    testing.

... Until something comes along that generates electricity in the
bloody great bunches we use, we're stuck with the technologies at
hand.  (I think in maybe 20 years solar technology will be the
generation-method of choice; we're about one breakthrough away.)
Given that, then we have only a limited set of choices.  Oil is
expensive, coal can be very pollusive, nuclear has its problems too.
But, all of the above are preferrable to the method before that -
wood.  Most of the "small is beautiful" solutions I've seen are from
people who have the money to buy things that are out of most people's
(including me) reach -- which is not really a solution (though I guess
it makes *them* feel better.)

   I note that you said "weapons testing".  This was no small trick
(i.e. only testing.)  That the only two nuclear weapons have ever been
dropped in anger were used over 45 years ago is a pretty amazing
thing, all things considered.  The reasons for testing nukes is mostly
to remind everybody that they still work.  (That's not the official
reason, but its part of the theory of deterrence...  Crude, but
effective.  Some other method might have stopped nuclear war better,
but this method *did* deter nuclear war -- since we haven't had one.
I'd just as soon not "do over" the last 47 years to try something
else.  Besides, what's left of the Soviet Union still has atomic and
hydrogen bombs in abundance, and no one seems to know who they all
actually belong to.)

   Pollution is a byproduct of the lifestyle, and the lifestyle is
evolving.  Maybe its not evolving fast enough to suit you, but
that's another matter.  Pollution, in some form, is a byproduct
of all life.

    3) We have allowed major corporate entities to take over most
    of the true power in this world thru relationships with
    oil/petrochemical operations, banking, , etc. that care only
    about profit, and have ethics that would place secondary the
    well-being of most human beings on the planet.

... and yet these corporate entities create most of the good stuff,
too.  The electric car; solar panels; better and faster and more
computers; Humphrey Bogart movies; and so on and on and on.  Profit
motive, in some form, governs everything we humans do.  That is not
really a byproduct of greed, it is a byproduct of thought.  A
centralized, carefully planned, system of government failed miserably
(in the Soviet Union) to survive, in part because none of the citizens
could see any personal reason to make it work.

    4) All transportations systems currently in use, with few
    exceptions, have been promoted by corporations that care
    little that they are inefficient, or pollute the environment.
    This causes the poisoning of ourselves, our planet and our oceans.

... you have it backwards.  The corporations were able to sell such
vehicles precisely because the people who *buy* them did not care.  A
profit-minded corporation can only sell what its consumers wish to
buy.  Car makers did not sneak 100,000,000 automobiles into
everybody's driveway -- we bought 'em, and we bought 'em because we
wanted to (the automobile did some good things too, you know --
single-handedly put the horse out of business; you might want to
consider the pollution it *saved*, too.)


    5) All the while, most of us have stood by and done little
    about these problems, and united we could change most of t.

... true enough.  On the other hand, that is what "most of us" have
done throughout our history as a race.   If this is changing, even
slightly, then it is an improvement.  (That "united we could change
it" line is interesting.  Who are we?  How would we unite?  A world
government?  Whose?)

    In fact, i would venture that they feel only that we have done
    very little spiritually, to advance ourselves, we care only
    about material wealth, pleasure, and luxury, and that we have
    not come close to integrating technology with spirituality,
    which is the true challenge to an advancing culture.

... I suggest you try and teach a starving man about the writings of
Kerouac.  I doubt he'll listen to you very much.  The human race is
really quite new to the idea of having too much of things (in earlier
times, luxury was available only to the very priviliged, not the
average joe in the street.)  I have grown up in a time when I can
obtain many "luxury goods".  My parents did not.  My grandparents did
not.  That means I am from the first generation of my (middle class)
family in which luxury goods were not likely to disappear -- its a new
idea -- it takes some getting used to.  (Likewise, computers are a
complete mystery to my mother -- expecting everyone to 'digest' new
technologies and use them wisely is asking a lot.)


    I doubt we have really lived up to the potential that they
    would see so clearly of us.

... typically, one does not expect a 15-year-old to be as wise as an
adult.   The 15-year-old has to grow, to experiment, to see what
works, before he or she can be expected to act in what we might
call a completely rational being.   Condemning the 15-year-old for not
acting like an adult is short-sighted.  Give him or her time.  That,
in my opinion, is the analogy for the human race.  Collective action
on the world stage has only been tried in this century, and failed
miserably once (the League of Nations); getting everybody to trust
each other is not a simple task.  Give us time.

   Also, a 13-year-old usually has parent(s) to guide them, the human
race has had to make it up as they go along.  Idealism (or world-weary
cynicism) is easy.  Demanding things be "correct" is easy.  Actually
getting there is not so easy.

Charles
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29683 alt.alien.visitors:8918 talk.religion.newage:11532
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 02:04:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
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Steve Linke says,

>Actually, all 46 strands are active in males and 45 of the strands
>are active in females.  Which doesn't have the slightest effect on
>what percentage of our minds we use.

How have you proven that the DNA does not have the slightest effect on
what percentage of our minds we use?

>I work at the same institution as the researcher who discovered the
>two-stranded helical structure of DNA (Francis Crick).  He even got
>the Nobel Prize for this work.  If you have evidence that your DNA
>is TRIPLE-stranded as you claim, I'm sure he would be interested in
>doing X-ray crystallography on it to verify this fact.

It sounds like he may be worth talking with if he found one missing heli
he might be willing to look for the other 10 missing heli.  I am game.

>>As I see DNA scientists start to roar this
>>isn t what they told me is school.  I would like to suggest that even if
>>the 12 heli are not distinguishable under a microscope that there may be an
>>explanation for it that hasn t been discovered or noticed.  Like some of
>>our DNA may not be physical it could be in another energy spectrum we have
>>not detected.

>The physical structure of DNA is well-characterized.  If your "12
>heli" aren't physical, then they aren't DNA.  Maybe they are HIINA's
>(hottub-inducible imaginary nucleic acids).

I guess that is why science can not use the word love,  it is like my
HIINA s.  I guess you don t believe in Aura s,  why because Kirlian
photography was discovered by Russians?

>>It sounds to me like you are saying that unless one of your high priests
>>okays it you are not allowed to think of it.  You know I made an attempt to
>>get some input on this very net.  Someone came on sounding like he knew
>>something about DNA but wound up saying breathing could kill and had the
>>audacity to tell me not to do what I have been doing for the last 16 years.
>>And actually tried to warn,  scare, people away from what I do.

>I am the "high priest" who came on and warned people.  I didn't warn
>them that breathing would kill them.  I warned them that purposely
>causing yourself to hyperventilate will not "activate your DNA," but
>rather inactivate your oxygen supply and may lead to death.  If
>anybody stopped breathing a few months ago when I posted that
>message, by all means resume normal breathing immediately.  Holding
>your breath over several months will also inactive your oxygen
>supply and will lead to death.

We Steve from your statements above it sounds like hyperventilating and
holding ones breath produce the same effect,  death.  Me and a lot of
others doing breathwork actually breath a lot faster and deeper than
someone who is hyperventilating.  If your belief is true,  why aren t we
dead?  What is your belief based on?  I show all my clients how you say
they are going to die by breathing the way we do.  They say,  they see why
you would believe something like that,  but I don t,  why do you believe
that?

>Please send me some of your DNA.  I would be happy to get the ball
>rolling on the analysis of your triple-stranded DNA.  I must admit,
>though, that all of the scientists here (including myself) live and
>work in the three-dimensional world.  Therefore, we might not be
>able to detect your HIINA.

I would be very interested in taking you up on that.  How about me and a
few others submitting DNA samples once a year for the next five years.  And
I will even throw in getting some of my ET friends to tell you how and what
to look for.  After all maybe HIINA s are a superset of DNA.  Just think of
all the Nobel prizes you guys could get for noticing that.  And the nice
thing about getting tips from ETs is that they don t ask for any credit.

Now I have a few questions.

The Pleiadians say the human DNA was scattered leaving only the bottom two
Heli in tact.  Bob Lazer in the video he is selling,  says that he was put
in a room full of documents the ETS had given the government and that in
one of the documents it said that ETs had modified the human DNA 58 times.
And another source says that ETs have bread with earth stock many different
times.  Now my question is can you from what you know of DNA prove this did
not happen?  Have you done any comparison of the different human species to
observe any differences?

From what I have been taught,  by my ET friends,  that DNA is compressed
data.  Do you think that is possible,  or do you consider DNA fully linear,
ie this gene does this,  that gene does that.  Or could it be possible that
maybe DNA is like core memory that comes with a program,  but that that
program can be changed.  I will have to say that oxygenation is part of the
formula for changing ones DNA the other factor is love.

Don Showen

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 09:02:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <r#cn=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 31

Sorry charlie,
I can't buy into most of what you said. Just sounds like
excusses for most of the charges I am bringing forth.

The Watergate info I'm refering to says only that Nixon
tried to blackmail the CIA into doing his bidding, helping
him in his hour of need.

Your right, I was thinking of E. Howard Hunt. Have you read
Plausible Denial? He figures heavily in this work.

Obviously Nixion didn't get his way, but he also stopped short
of getting himself shot too.

Anyway, your idealism brings back memories of when I bought into
the conventional wisdom. But no more. I've met too many people;
traveling through dozens of countries, that have left me with new
ways of thinking. Most people in the US don't realize the amount
of propaganda we're exposed to in this country; but the Europeans
understand it pretty well.

Ultimately, what the WASP ruling class of the Western world has
failed to do is raise it's spirtual evolvement to the same rate
of expansion as that of the technological advancement that is
going on. And that leads to imbalance, and ultimate downfall.
Rome lasted 2000 years; so far all great empires have self-
destructed. I see little reason to believe that we don't face
the same destiny sooner or later.

Jeff-

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:47:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>plan engineered by aliens to set up a 4th Reich of Nazis by January 2000.
>4th, the US Govt. will admit that Zeta Reticulans have landed; 5th, the stock
>become President (I suppose that's the way he'll spell his name by then).
>All this is given on the authority of a Mr. Michael Younger, who claims to

This is, in my less-than-humble opinion, is a fraud.  Nothing of this sort
could possibly happen without taking into account the rest of the world.
In the original posting to this net, that message generated lots of
wasted bandwidth, and detailed the components of the  letter.  Nowhere
in the letter (I wager) or in the original post concerning this claim her
here on the net was Mexico, Canada, Russia, Great Britain, India or any
other country mentioned.  Like, yeah, they don't matter.  Wrong!!
The bulk of the population of the planet is NOT in the US...  and I fail
to see how Dan Quail could possibly be the fair-haired boy of the alien
Grays.  Yecch!!

Michael Younger is a con-artist.  He's one of a new crop of people
who talk about any subject the audience wants to hear, for the single
purpose of charging the audience for the experience and living off the
proceeds.  Channelers, contactees like George Adamski, etc are
simply a newer version of palm readers.  New story, more glitz, same con.

Proof?  Do I have any proof?  Heck no.  Do I care?  Not hardly.
--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29688 alt.alien.visitors:8921 talk.religion.newage:11533
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 03:34:12 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
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RA says

>It seems you have a much different definition of DNA from the vast majority
>of biologists and chemists.  Perhaps we need to come to an agreement on
>what DNA is.  Please include a brief discussion on how DNA being 'non-physical'
>is _not_ a contradiction in terms.

I have said often on this net that I have been assisting folks to remember
their past lives for over 20 years.  In doing that I have always guided the
individual to the point after the body died to see what happens after
death.  Almost all had an awareness of what happened after they died. In
fact, many cried at their own funerals.  I have also, in a few cases, had
the person move forward in time to when they first contacted their present
parents, before conception.  So this means that our DNA is constructed from
three sources,  our own past, and our biological parents. The other factor
involved in this is that past, unresolved emotions survive death and come
in with us to be embedded in our DNA.  So it is possible that some of our
biggest emotional problems could have originated in past lives..  Now the
principle involved here is that all time is simultaneous.  The lessons we
have had to learn,  hang around until we learn them. The nice thing is that
all that learning it implies is experiencing the emotion that was not
experienced when it happened.  Unfortunately, denying the existence of ones
past lives does not relieve the emotional impact of them.  A male in this
life who was a female in a past life who, lets say was raped or burned at
the stake, will probably practice heavy denial of their feminine aspects.
A female in this life who, lets say was raped or burned at the stake, will
probably not as fully express  her sexuality or psychic abilities because
of the lingering feelings that have not been identified.

The reason this is real to me is that in the breath work I do with people
the first few sessions are usually spent on resolving the birth trauma (oh
darn something else people aren t supposed to be able to remember).  And
then past life memories start coming up for many,  just in the process of
breathing.  Now to me it is pretty obvious that a person does not grab any
DNA when they drop a body.  But they do strongly effect the DNA of their
new body.  At least 1/3 of it,  if not more.

Don Showen
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!amigans!ed
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Edward Kitto)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 22:39:13 GMT
Organization: Wanganui Amigans, Wanganui, New Zealand
Lines: 15

I have enjoyed the discussion regarding Tesla. What
surprises me is that the skeptics et al have not debunked
him. Why is this? After all he is such a target. Could it be
that his genius intimidates those erudite conservatives that
infest this nest?
The fact is, without AC power, this medium along with the
rest of the modern world would not exist ; without the
contribution of this "crackpot". Humiliating isn't it? What
say ye now ye upholders of the scientific banion. By any
definition of the term Tesla was not a scientist.
What you learn in books is merely instructional - nihilists
have to learn that they are the parasites of the Earth.


[e-mail] (Edward Kitto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (White)
Subject: Alleged Federal Edict
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Administrator)
Organization: Raytheon Company
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:02:03 GMT
Lines: 19

Rummaging through my VHS collection of UFO-related material, I came
across a tape wherein the Rhode Island head of the MUFON chapter made
a statement to the interviewer to the effect that:

    ". . .there is a federal law on the books that prohibits
    U.S. citizens from communicating with extraterrestrials."

Can any legal beagle on the USENET confirm or deny the existence of the
aforementioned statute?  It would not only confirm my suspicion that
Congress really doesn't have enough to keep them busy, but would also
make further grist for my sci-fi novel in progress.


=======================
Paul White
[e-mail]
My opinions are not those of Raytheon
=======================

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 38
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:54:40 GMT


In article <[e-mail]>, 40 GMT


|>For those of you that are interested in the life and times of Tesla the
|>"International Tesla Society" and Tesla Museum are base/located here in
|>Colorado Springs.  You can write or call to this address/phonenumber
|>
|>
|>International Tesla Society
|>17 East Las Vegas
|>Colorado Springs, Colorado 80903
|>
|>Phone [phone]
|>
|>Sorry I do not have or know of an 800 number
|>
|>They recently and there international convention here.  I attend part of it
|>and I was very impresive.  Tesla was a genius to say the least.
|>
|>Steve


    Jeez Steve I just read your note and your spelling is awefull!

    Steve 8^)

--
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        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!exg106
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:40:35 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Fascinating note.  Obviously the person who wrote it (originally, I guess)
suffers from extreme paranoia and seek psychiatric help immediately!
These Greys and Reptiods (or were they from another note?) are ridiculous.
When will people cut this "conspiracy" thing, especially when it involves somet
hing so ludicrous as extra terrestrials, etc.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!sunova!andorra!kevin
From: [e-mail] (RICK O'LEARY)
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter FLAME !!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: andorra.ssc.gov
Reply-To: [e-mail] (RICK O'LEARY)
Organization: 8-Track Museum of Technology
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:37:59 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
|> Fascinating note.  Obviously the person who wrote it (originally, I guess)
|> suffers from extreme paranoia and seek psychiatric help immediately!
|> These Greys and Reptiods (or were they from another note?) are ridiculous.
|> When will people cut this "conspiracy" thing, especially when it involves somet
|> hing so ludicrous as extra terrestrials, etc.


WHAT ARE YOU DOING READING STUFF IN ALT.ALIEN.VISITORS FOR  !!!!!!

LUDICROUS ??? ....  E.T.'S  ECT. ?!?!?!?!
                            ~~~~
DID YOU HIT THE WRONG KEY ON YOUR TRS-80 ????

LEAVE US NOW OR WE WILL SHOW YOU THE TRUTH YOU FEAR !!!!!!!!

ROCKO


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!nuug!dhhalden.no!dhhalden.no!guest
From: [e-mail] (.GJEST)
Subject: R.R.-Is he real???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News User)
Nntp-Posting-Host: pc132
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:33:23 GMT
Lines: 3

I've allways wondered; Is Ronald Reagen an alien?

    G.H.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29711 alt.alien.visitors:8928 talk.religion.newage:11536
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 09:16:51 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
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Lines: 72

RA says >Note the "could". I could be the Queen of England , too. >STOP
EATING MUSHROOMS !!!!

Well since you brought it up.  And since communicating with Tesla and/or the
Pleiadians seems a little to much.  How about what those mushrooms have to
say.  Let me quote them.

Our opinions in this matter do not rest upon the opinions of others nor
upon anything written instead they rest upon the experience of the mushroom
psilocybin at the 10 mg level; at that level a peculiar phenomenon occurs.
It is the emergence of an l-Thou relationship between the person taking the
psilocybin and the mental state it evokes. Jung calls this "transference"
and it was a necessary condition of early and primitive humanity's
relationship to its gods and demons. The mushroom speaks, and our opinions
rest upon what it tells eloquently of itself in the cool night of the mind:

"I am old, older than thought in your species, which is itself fifty times
older than your history. Though I have been on earth for ages I am from the
stars. My home is no one planet, for many worlds scattered through the
shining disc of the galaxy have conditions which allow my spores an
opportunity for life. The mushroom which you see is the part of my body
given to sex thrills and sun bathing, my true body is a fine network of
fibers growing through the soil. These networks may cover acres and may
have far more connections that the number in a human brain. My mycelial
network is nearly immortal only the sudden toxification of a planet or the
explosion of its parent star can wipe me out. By means impossible to
explain because of certain misconceptions in your model of reality all my
mycelial networks in the galaxy are in hyperlight communication across
space and time. The mycelial body is as fragile as a spider's web but the
collective hypermind and memory is a vast historical archive of the career
of evolving intelligence on many worlds in our spiral star swarm. Space,
you see, is a vast ocean to those hardy life forms that have the ability to
reproduce from spores, for spores are covered with the hardest organic
substance known. Across the aeons of time and space drift many
spore-forming life-forms in suspended animation for millions of years until
contact is made with a suitable environment. Few such species are minded,
only myself and my recently evolved near relatives have achieved the
hyper-communication mode and memory capacity that makes us leading members
in the community of galactic intelligence. How the hypercommunication mode
operates is a secret which will not be lightly given to man. But the means
should be obvious: it is the occurrence of psilocybin and psilocin in the
biosynthetic pathways of my living body that opens for me and my symbiots
the vision screens to many worlds. You as an individual and man as a
species are on the brink of the formation of a symbiotic relationship with
my genetic material that will eventually carry humanity and earth into the
galactic mainstream of the higher civilizations.

"Since it is not easy for you to recognize other varieties of intelligence
around you, your most advanced theories of politics and society have
advanced only as far as the notion of collectivism. But beyond the cohesion
of the members of a species into a single social organism there lie richer
and even more baroque evolutionary possibilities. Symbiosis is one of
these. Symbiosis is a relation of mutual dependence and positive benefits
for both of the species involved. Symbiotic relationships between myself
and civilized forms of higher animals have been established many times and
in many places throughout the long ages of my development. These
relationships have been mutually useful; within my memory is the knowledge
of hyperlight drive ships and how to build them. I will trade this
knowledge for a free ticket to new worlds around suns younger and more
stable than your own. To secure an eternal existence down the long river of
cosmic time I again and again offer this agreement to higher beings and
thereby have spread throughout the galaxy over the long millennia. A
mycelial network has no organs to move the world, no hands; but higher
animals with manipulative abilities can become partners with the star
knowledge within me and if they act in good faith, return both themselves
and their humble mushroom teacher to the million worlds all citizens of our
starswarm are heir to."

From the book Psilocybin - Magic Mushroom Grower s Guide by O.T. Oss & O.N.
Oeric

Don Showen
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible And Ufos (can You Help?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:40:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Followup-To: group
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
Lines: 11

I read a book called "The Spaceships of Ezekiel" by J.F. Blumrich. I was
actually prompted by my own independent discovery of what I deemed to be a
UFO in the Bible. Nothing world-shattering compared with the original
(Ezekiel), but not boring.   Paul (Milsom)




Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!wce2
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:29:44 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

Thanks folks:  I wasn't hooked up to the net in the summer, so I missed the fir
st flurry.  I gather that the source was Cosmic Awareness Communications of Oly
mpia, Washington, who also put together a "make 30 copies" chain letter full of
 MJ-12, Bill Cooper, Nightmare Hall, Mark of the Beast, Bilderburger, and simil
ar imminent threats in 1990, I think.  I'm familiar with their line from back i
ssues of the Nevada Aerial Research Group Newsletter.  This time it's odd that
CAC didn't put their address on it as a recommended resource.

Besides circulating on this net, did anyone else get it handed or mailed to the
m as a chain letter?  As editor of a contemporary legend newsletter, I like to
keep track of how things like this move.  It reminds me of the "Blue Star Acid"
warnings, appeals for business cards for dying 7-year-old Craig Shergold, and s
imilar photocopy pyramid schemes.

Thanks again for the info.

Bill Ellis
FOAFtale News
Penn State, Hazleton Campus
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:03:50 GMT
Lines: 31

[e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>>
>>    However back in Niagra Falls cooler heads prevailed.  Westinghouse
>>finally got to install some of Tesla's AC generators which were proven
>>to be superior.  It rather spread from there.  After a while, Edison
>>was out of a job in the power generating industry.
>>
>>    Stick to lightbulbs, Tommy.....   :-)

>From _The_Dictionary_of_Misinformation_, by Tom Burnam:

>Inventor of the lightbulb:  Many people think he was, but Thomas A.
>Edison simply improved upon a principle others had discovered and worked
>on for years.  Electric lighting itself is much older than commonly supposed,
>although the earliest attempts involved arcs rather than filaments.
>As early as 1802 Sir Humphrey Davy produced an arc light, and in 1844,
>three years before Edison was born, Jean Foucalt made an arc light
>strong enough to illuminate the Place de la Concorde in Paris.

>An English physicist, Sir Joseph William Swan, made a crude light bulb
>as early as 1860.  In 1878, he showed a successful carbon-filament lamp
>at Newcastle, some ten months beore Edison managed to come up with
>his "original".


    See? I told you he was a theif!  :-)

Duane

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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Date: 27 Aug 92 16:59:03 GMT
Lines: 20

[e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:


>>     My source for a lot of this is a book by Margaret Cheney -
>> "Tesla: Man out of Time".  I strongly encourage anyone to read this
>> book.

>Unfortunately, Cheney's book read (to me, anyway) as an exercise in
>unabashed hero worship. I personally don't believe all of the claims
>she made for Tesla. However, there are other (better) biographies of
>Tesla out there, and they do tend to back up the stories you mentioned
>in your post.

    Yes, I think you could say fairly that Cheney was fairly
pro-Tesla.  However, if you follow up on some of her sources (also used
in other biographies) you will find that (as you experienced) other
works do seem to back these things up....

Duane

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From: [e-mail] (CSYSPCN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:53:05 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, on 27 Aug 92 22:39:13 GMT,
[e-mail] (Edward Kitto) writes:

>                                               What
>surprises me is that the skeptics et al have not debunked
>him.

Truth is truth, regardless of the source.  His results were subject
to scientific scrutiny, were repeatable, and independently
verifiable.

What's to debunk?
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29719 alt.alien.visitors:8934 talk.religion.newage:11540
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!ncar!ico!auto-trol!davgot
From: [e-mail] (David Gottner)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: davgot.auto-trol.com
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:17:00 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>RA says
>
>...So this means that our DNA is constructed from
>three sources,  our own past, and our biological parents. The other factor
>involved in this is that past, unresolved emotions survive death and come
>in with us to be embedded in our DNA.  So it is possible that some of our
>biggest emotional problems could have originated in past lives..

Some ET's that I work with told me this also, but I have a hard time
with this one.

According to what we know about genetics, all of your DNA comes
from ones parents.  There is no provision for past life memories
to be recorded in the DNA.

So, how are past memories imprinted on the DNA?
--
Amrit Prem            |
[e-mail]        | This area is intentionally left blank
{...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!younam     |
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From: [e-mail] (Nick Molinari)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: SIRIUSLY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:44:45 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems
Lines: 9

Any body ever read "THE SIRIUS MYSTERY" by R.K. TEMPLE????

And shouldn't we think about making an atmosphere on mars???
We may have to move one day......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHY DON'T YOU KEEP YOUR STINKINESS TO YOURSELF?????
R.H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:47:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Information Services
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David
Gottner) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>RA says
>>
>>...So this means that our DNA is constructed from
>>three sources,  our own past, and our biological parents. The other factor
>>involved in this is that past, unresolved emotions survive death and come
>>in with us to be embedded in our DNA.  So it is possible that some of our
>>biggest emotional problems could have originated in past lives..
>
>Some ET's that I work with told me this also, but I have a hard time
>with this one.
>
>According to what we know about genetics, all of your DNA comes
>from ones parents.  There is no provision for past life memories
>to be recorded in the DNA.
>
>So, how are past memories imprinted on the DNA?
>--
>Amrit Prem            |
>[e-mail]        | This area is intentionally left blank
>{...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!younam     |
>
DNA is more of an address to memory than memory itself.  The frequency/harmonic
wave produced by DNA generalizes, i.e. humans have human memories archetypes
emotions.  Individual memories are a feature of the personality and the local
wave produced by the DNA.  Personal perceptions (memories) are like flowers in
a field.  No one of them is important, however, each of them contributes.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11541 alt.alien.visitors:8937 sci.skeptic:29730
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!unix!clipper!mgm
From: [e-mail] (Mike Marfell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Mt.Shasta  (Was: Get Off John's Back Please!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:16:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Free Thinkers: There has been a slight change in my plans. I won't
> be leaving for Mt. Shasta till about 400 AM thursday morning. My son and
> I hope to explore an ice cave or sometimes called a volcanic vent that
> is within 12 miles of our property. This vent extends underground a short
> distance then is about one half mile long as it goes parallel with the
> surface. I feel that about 10,000 people may be able to get in there in
> case something happened. I hope to put some survival provisions in there
> just in case.
> John Winston.


   Now is this an open invitation or is it limited to the New Revisionests
 and or Nazi scum you always write about.

      PS: Hope the vent does'nt erupt.  NOT!!!
--

Mike Marfell                                      [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:25:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>:-) :-)  I'd like to see them try.  If they wanted to stop communication,
>they'd have to shut down all phone lines, the postal service, turn the radio
>and TV spectrum to mush with random noise, and confine everyone to their homes.
>No need to confiscate anything, and arguably easier to acheive (not much
>easier :-) .


Ironically, the reason the coup against Gorby failed because the
KGB wasn't able to stop the spread of information.  The one major
source of information during that time was fax machines.

The people weren't in the dark and the new government never had a chance
to consolidate its position.

And you have to remember, in order to do this the president would
have to rely on the military to shoot civilians without apparent moral
justification.  US soldiers aren't likely, post Kent State, to shoot
into crowds.  UN doesn't have enough troops to 'take control' in the
US.

Naw, the guy who spouted that drivel is obviously strange.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fiction
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:19:03 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: 147.34.4.19
Organization: Information Services
Lines: 40

Don't call me,  I'll call you !
Every few thousand years, the earth and its inhabitants are visited by life
forms that exist within this energy domain.  These life forms were/are beings
that developed on a planetary system near the star system Alpha Centares.
Their visit has coincided with major shifts in human consciousness.  The last
visit was somewhat unusual in that the beings left behind a sort of 'watchdog'
to observe the developing humans.  The watchdog was set to broadcast a message
when the human mind became sufficiently developed to understand the potential
role of humanity in the exploration of this domain.  The signal was sent nearly
thirty years ago.  I was sent to determine whether the humans were ready,
however, my craft was destroyed and I was forced to find a suitable host to
allow me to analyze the human mind and its growing powers of perception.
Little did I realize, by entering a human host I lost my memory and mission.
As a human I experienced awareness and perception, sensation and being.  Those
qualities of existence long since forgotten by my fellow life forms.  That's
when I became a 'renegade'.  A sort of 'devils advocate'.  And I began to
reshape the world based upon my view of reality.  Now as earth approaches the
year 2000, I have recovered most of my memory and my mission again is clear,
however, I also realize the mind of humans may never reach the level of
awareness to fully understand and appreciate this energy domain.  Despite the
many emissaries and teachers sent to earth, humans have progressed very little
beyond the capacities of their ancestors.  It is with sadness that I must
report back.   However, the humans make excellent pets.   Their desire and
skill in imitation is incredible.  I would highly recommend their use as hosts.
 Perhaps even more important, their lack of imagination and their inability to
perceive the energy domain in its native form makes them and their planet, the
ideal location for a Paradise.  The only caveat that I'm aware of is their
incessant obsession to externalize their origin.   I am sure you will find this
to be bothersome but an easy work around is possible.   Merely offer them the
opportunity to accept responsibility for their existence and they become docile
and easily managed.  As for myself, well, I've found one of the humans
particularly interesting and a clear connection has created a bridge between
our two peoples.  We will explore the potential of our meeting and once
securely bonded, we will encompass this energy domain, exploring together in
these human forms.  Once every few thousand years we'll return to earth and
observe the progress of the humans.  Until then enjoy Paradise.
Yours Truly
God


Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29745 alt.alien.visitors:8940 talk.religion.newage:11544
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:31:49 GMT
Lines: 56

[e-mail] writes:
:
: Now I have a few questions.
:
: The Pleiadians say the human DNA was scattered leaving only the bottom two
: Heli in tact.  Bob Lazer in the video he is selling,  says that he was put
: in a room full of documents the ETS had given the government and that in
: one of the documents it said that ETs had modified the human DNA 58 times.
: And another source says that ETs have bread with earth stock many different
: times.  Now my question is can you from what you know of DNA prove this did
: not happen?  Have you done any comparison of the different human species to
: observe any differences?
:

Have your ET friends been dicking about with chimpanzee DNA also?
Human and chimp DNA sequences are 99.something percent identical.

:
: From what I have been taught,  by my ET friends,  that DNA is compressed
: data.  Do you think that is possible,  or do you consider DNA fully linear,
: ie this gene does this,  that gene does that.  Or could it be possible that
: maybe DNA is like core memory that comes with a program,  but that that
: program can be changed.  I will have to say that oxygenation is part of the
: formula for changing ones DNA the other factor is love.
:

If you are using programs that come with core memory, you need to
order some upgrades.  I would advise buying programs that come with
CMOS RAM.

Actually, I've never seen a program that came with memory.

Using your phrase, DNA is pretty much "linear" although some genes
control large sets of traits.  There are also environmental factors
that influence the expression of genes.  As far as I know, neither
love nor panting have shown to be genetic regulatory mechanisms.

I haven't the faintest idea what you mean by compressed data.  This
ususally means that some or all redundancy or patterns have been
encoded in such a way to reduce the total number of symbols required.
The higher the redundancy or the more patterned the data is, the more
it can be compressed.  On the other hand, you generally can't compress
random noise.

Is that the type of data compression you are talking about?  If so,
ask your ET friends for the compression algorithm being used
(Lempel-Zev, Huffman coding, what?).

After reading all of JWs stuff, it's a relief to hear from a rational,
scientific person like Don.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Let's send the Russians
Rosemount Inc.                                |defective lifestyle
                                              |accessories!
[e-mail]                 |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:11546 alt.alien.visitors:8941 sci.skeptic:29757
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:06:10 GMT
Lines: 0

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <![e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:03:53 GMT
Lines: 6

PLEEAASSSE, Not this stuff again! I hope after the next five days pass that
everyone on the net or atleast this newsgroup :) forgets about this crap!

                                        Remember, NO GUNS!
                                        Joseph A. Citro I

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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:16:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: GRASP Lab
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Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

> DNA is more of an address to memory than memory itself.  The frequency/harmonic
> wave produced by DNA generalizes, i.e. humans have human memories archetypes
> emotions.  Individual memories are a feature of the personality and the local
> wave produced by the DNA.  Personal perceptions (memories) are like flowers in
> a field.  No one of them is important, however, each of them contributes.

HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER.
You do believe in what you say, don't you ?
jeeeez.


JM.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:29760 alt.alien.visitors:8944 talk.religion.newage:11547
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:53:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 9

According to [e-mail]:
>Now my question is can you from what you know of DNA prove this did
>not happen?

Classic.  Just classic.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!bu.edu!dartvax!Robert.T.Warfield
From: [e-mail] (Robert T. Warfield)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien in a bar.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:03:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
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X-Posted-From: [e-mail]


  A few years ago, I met an alien in a bar. Actually, It was a woman
claiming to be an alien.
  She said that she was an incorporeal being from another dimension who
decided to inhabit a human infant and grow up in our culture. The
reason for this is that her colleagues were going to destroy the earth
in 1997 because of mankinds potential to develope interdimensional
transport (they also think that we are sick and disgusting, no suprise
there).
  She is of the opinion that we have some redeming qualities and does
not want us to be destroyed just yet.
  Believe it or not, this is not fiction. Has anyone else heard of
incorporeal biengs in human bodies wanting to destroy the earth?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Alien in a bar.
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:19:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Information Services
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Robert T. Warfield) writes:
>
>  A few years ago, I met an alien in a bar. Actually, It was a woman
>claiming to be an alien.
>  She said that she was an incorporeal being from another dimension who
>decided to inhabit a human infant and grow up in our culture. The
>reason for this is that her colleagues were going to destroy the earth
>in 1997 because of mankinds potential to develope interdimensional
>transport (they also think that we are sick and disgusting, no suprise
>there).
>  She is of the opinion that we have some redeming qualities and does
>not want us to be destroyed just yet.
>  Believe it or not, this is not fiction. Has anyone else heard of
>incorporeal biengs in human bodies wanting to destroy the earth?
>
Only beings who have come to watch.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: R.R.-Is he real???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:07:19 GMT

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (.GJEST) writes:
> I've allways wondered; Is Ronald Reagen an alien?
>
>     G.H.

He can't remember:-)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!grip.cis.upenn.edu!jmv
From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien in a bar.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:25:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert T. Warfield) writes:
>
>   A few years ago, I met an alien in a bar. Actually, It was a woman
> claiming to be an alien.

[usual sci-fi story deleted]


A few years ago, I met a woman in a bar. Actually she was claiming
she could bring me into new dimensions, upstairs.

I didn't try.

But I believe her.


JM.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Jones)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadi
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tidss1.dadd.ti.com
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:45:28 GMT
Lines: 10

Don, I'd just like to know where you get this information about DNA.  And
why do you believe it?

I don't mean this as a flame - I'd just like to understand where you're
coming from.

---
sincerely,
Alan Jones  /  Texas Instruments, Dallas, TX  /  email=[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: in-body-experience
Keywords: obe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:14:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
writes:
[A bunch of horse-hockey deleted]

Tom - it was an okay effort, but I think both Gary and John have you
outmatched.  It was a very disjointed story, and used several
well-worn themes familiar to any SF/fantasy reader.

A suggestion - plot out where you're going before you get there.  Too
much seemed thrown in on the spur of the moment, as you were writing.

If you expect anybody to actually believe this nonsense, try harder.

    RA
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tesla: Genius and Fruitcake All In One
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:03:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
> From _The_Dictionary_of_Misinformation_, by Tom Burnam:
>
> Inventor of the lightbulb:  Many people think he was, but Thomas A.
> Edison simply improved upon a principle others had discovered and worked
> on for years.  Electric lighting itself is much older than commonly supposed,
> although the earliest attempts involved arcs rather than filaments.
> As early as 1802 Sir Humphrey Davy produced an arc light, and in 1844,
> three years before Edison was born, Jean Foucalt made an arc light
> strong enough to illuminate the Place de la Concorde in Paris.
>
> An English physicist, Sir Joseph William Swan, made a crude light bulb
> as early as 1860.  In 1878, he showed a successful carbon-filament lamp
> at Newcastle, some ten months beore Edison managed to come up with
> his "original".
Listen to this:

 The governer of North Carolina was complementing Thomas Edison one day on
being a great inventor.
 The modest Edison looked uncomfortable. 'I am not a great inventor', he said.
'But you have over a thousand patents to your credit, haven't you?'
'Yes, but about the only invention*I*can*claim*as*absolutley*original* is the
phonograph,' was the reply.
'Just what do you mean? asked the governer.
'Well,' explained Mr Edison 'I guess I'm an awfully good sponge. I absorb ideas
from every source I can, and put them ti practical use. Then I improve them
until they become of some value. The ideas are mostly the ideas of people who
don't develop them.

- Taken from Jokes, Quotes and other one liners fir public speakers, by H
Prochnow and H prochnow Jr, a Thorson publication. (3831 in 1987 oublication).
 Don't knock a great man. He was only doing what other people should have done
long ago.

--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
[e-mail], or try
[e-mail]

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be disappointed.
                --me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
                   --Don Marquis
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From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: more whittley streiber, 7731. Read 'So much rom..'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 08:55:56 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 39

>
> Dear oh dear oh dear...Who's being picking posts at random?
> Humans=evidence of sentient life in universe.
> Only one hell of a conceited bastard thinks that all the life in the entire
> unverse can be found in a thin layer of crap on the outside of a liquid steel
> ball.


All right, to pick a post at random...

Why exactly does the realization that there must be other life in the universe
mean that this life MUST be visiting here?

I understand humans=evidence of sentient life in universe.
I understand sentient life on Earth=probably sentient life elsewhere
I DON'T understand sentient life elsewhere=goofy grey aliens who cross the
millions of light years to get to Earth, only to make some crop circles,
mutilate a few cattle, and abduct a few people who were mentally unstable
anyway.

It's a BIG universe, folks.  What makes you think the aliens have any interest
in the Earth?  What makes you think they've even FOUND it?  Forget trivial
things like the light barrier, how about the sheer number of stars in a single
Galaxy?  How do you fit in visits to 100 billion stars on your interstellar
journey, trying to find one that has semi-intelligent life?  Our TV and radio
signals have only had a change to traverse a sphere of a radius of 60 light
years or so.  That's a tiny fraction of the galaxy.  Why do we think that
humans are so important that they deserve any alien's full attention?  Unless
they have monitoring stations every 50 light-years apart throughout the entire
galaxy, they wouldn't even know we are HERE!


--
Jeremy_Reimer@ |"Anti-ninjas were the most feared assassins in the world.
mindlink.bc.ca | Instead of appearing out of thin air, throwing metal stars
---------------| and messing around with bo staffs and numchuks they simply
aka THE JAGUAR!| shot people and then drove everyone mad with pointless
---------------| conspiracy theories for years afterwards."
Stealth Sig#42 |  --From "N-Man #3"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (.GJEST)
Subject: Re: Alien in a bar.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News User)
Nntp-Posting-Host: pc227
Organization: Ostfold College
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:40:30 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert T. Warfield) writes:


>  A few years ago, I met an alien in a bar. Actually, It was a woman
>claiming to be an alien.
>  She said that she was an incorporeal being from another dimension who
>decided to inhabit a human infant and grow up in our culture. The
>reason for this is that her colleagues were going to destroy the earth
>in 1997 because of mankinds potential to develope interdimensional
>transport (they also think that we are sick and disgusting, no suprise
>there).
>  She is of the opinion that we have some redeming qualities and does
>not want us to be destroyed just yet.
>  Believe it or not, this is not fiction. Has anyone else heard of
>incorporeal biengs in human bodies wanting to destroy the earth?




Yes, I saw bodysnatchers once.

    ----GH----
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!train1!hinz
From: [e-mail] (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: train1
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 09:45:51 GMT
Lines: 30

CSYSPCN ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]>, on 27 Aug 92 22:39:13 GMT,
: [e-mail] (Edward Kitto) writes:
:
: >                                               What
: >surprises me is that the skeptics et al have not debunked
: >him.
:
: Truth is truth, regardless of the source.  His results were subject
: to scientific scrutiny, were repeatable, and independently
: verifiable.
:
: What's to debunk?

Well, it's interesting to note that although we can reproduce some of T's
experiments, we can't make anything like the ball lightning that he was
(allegedly?) able to "Hold in his hand like a glowing orb".  Of course,
the US gummint has snarfed away all of his notes, and as far as I know they
are still not released.  Obviously he was on to something that Uncle Sam
is uncomforable about others knowing.  Is it a money thing, a power thing,
or a knowledge thing?  Are all three the same?

I'll be in Denver after Labor day for a few weeks, and hope to get to the
Tesla museum in Co. Springs.  Anyone have any suggestions besides this?
(I have the phone number, thanks to the kind soul who sent it).

--

Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:57:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <c8=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Free Radical) writes:
>In article <c8=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
>[...]
>>
>>
>>RECIPE FOR A COVER-UP
>>
>>1) paranoid fantasy
>>2) paranoid fantasy
>>3) paranoid fantasy
>>4) paranoid fantasy
>>5) paranoid fantasy
>>6) paranoid fantasy
>>7) paranoid fantasy
>>
>>I could go on and on...
>>but I won't .
>>Jeff-
>
>Jeff - are you maybe Gary Stollman's long lost brother (clone?)  I
>dunno, his stuff rambles more but IMHO it's lots more fun to read.
>
>    RA

I've seen pictures of RA in egypt. YOU can't be RA, he has a leg to
stand on...
Jeff-
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter FLAME !!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:12:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 6

Hey!  Bush is sending the Army into Florida on the ruse of cleaning up after
the hurricane.  Couldn't this be the start of Helter Skelter?  Let's not be
hasty--August still has a couple of days to run.  The UN may still make it
in time for the serious bloodshed (if they don't get pinned down in Bosnia).

Bill Ellis FOAFtale News "Manson Was Right"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: V The Final Conflict
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:54:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 12

Does anyone out here know where I can find this series for purchase?
If you recall this started airing on television back in the early 80s and then
suddenly disappeared even tho their rating were high!!!

Any leads at all are appreciated....please Email all responses to
[e-mail] as I can only get into this group
via Email....we dont receive it here at my company.

Thanx in Advance
Len


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Sender: [e-mail] (Marchi, Khaled K.)
Nntp-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
Organization: University of Houston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:52:00 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>|> Dear People: The question was asked, "Did the days of darknes happen"?
>|> They did not happen. It appears that some of these channels like Hatonn
>|> when they talk through Dharma like to get people stirred up, and upset
>|> so that the people will change their ways. It doesn't make much sense
>|> to me. When Hatonn talks through Mr. Miller and the Solar Cross he sounds
>|> like a very nice guy. I went to a person called Gloria and she asked
>|> ......
>|> John Winston.
>
>Are you sure that this Miller person and this Dharma person are channeling
>the same Hatonn? Maybe Dharma is channelling Hatonn's sneaky and far less
>positive evil twin, Hatofff!
>

They are actually both channeling the same entity: Putonn

>
>
>Leonard.
>
>--
>***********************************************************************
>| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
>| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
>*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************


Kal
[e-mail]

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!small
From: [e-mail] (Peter Small)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: D-Notice
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:27:11 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle
Lines: 20

Does anyone have any information about D-Notice?  This is an informal
agreement between the governments of the world that keeps certain
artifacts, knowledge, etc out of the public eye.  It may have been
used to coverup UFO crash sites and certain OOPARTS (out of place
artifacts).

Any information will be appreciated.

Thank You

PS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Peter Small                  [e-mail]                  --
--                               uunet!bcstec!small                          --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Peter Small                  [e-mail]                  --
--                               uunet!bcstec!small                          --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien in a bar.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:23:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 27
Originator: [e-mail]


[e-mail] (Robert T. Warfield) writes:

>   A few years ago, I met an alien in a bar. Actually, It was a woman
> claiming to be an alien.
>   She said that she was an incorporeal being from another dimension who
> decided to inhabit a human infant and grow up in our culture. The
> reason for this is that her colleagues were going to destroy the earth
> in 1997 because of mankinds potential to develope interdimensional
> transport (they also think that we are sick and disgusting, no suprise
> there).
>   She is of the opinion that we have some redeming qualities and does
> not want us to be destroyed just yet.
>   Believe it or not, this is not fiction. Has anyone else heard of
> incorporeal biengs in human bodies wanting to destroy the earth?

So, did you take this opportunity to show her some of your own "redeeming
qualities"?

;-)

Craig
--
-- "You can expect virtually      Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  anything from a people who had      Internet: [e-mail] --
--  nuclear weapons in the early      IBM TR: [e-mail] --
--  seventeenth century."                           VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Weider)
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Owner)
Organization: Merit Network, Inc.  Ann Arbor, MI
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:43:09 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>I have received this in the physical mail. I understand others have
>received this too on both coastlines. If you have I am interested in
>hearing from you...this is a mosty strange occurrence.
>
>Len
>
>
>
>
>ATTENTION: CIVIL WAR IS ABOUT TO BE INCITED IN THE UNITED STATES! YOU AND
>           YOUR LOVED ONES ARE IN ACUTE DANGER! RACE RIOTS AND SLAUGHTER
>           OF AMERICANS WILL BE THE FIRST SIGN!
>
>THIS IS NO JOKE!  On July 4,1992, at a UFO convention in Arcadia, California,
>Mr. Michael Younger, a member of the super-secret COM-12 group and a scientist
>who worked at Groom Lake, Area 51 in Nevada, stunned the audience of over
>200 people with the following incredible information, which, if true, endangers
>the lives and freedoms of every American, and eventually the entire world.
>Here is the amazing scenario of the planned events:
>

This really is a classic example of an unfalsifiable claim... If it doesn't
happen (which it hasn't) (and it won't) the authors can claim that they
were responsible for averting the disaster, because they got the news
out in time. (Despite the fact that if something this heavy were *really*
going down, public exposure would only hasten the onset so that they could
achieve their plans with minimal force...)

What kind of world do these people live in, anyway?
Chris Weider

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Chain Letter FLAME !!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:07:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Hey!  Bush is sending the Army into Florida on the ruse of cleaning up after
>the hurricane.  Couldn't this be the start of Helter Skelter?  Let's not be
>hasty--August still has a couple of days to run.  The UN may still make it
>in time for the serious bloodshed (if they don't get pinned down in Bosnia).
>
>Bill Ellis FOAFtale News "Manson Was Right"



Get real.  How many million people live in Miami?  And how many troops?
One brigade.  (No, I'm not counting the cooks and the doctors.  They don't
have to qualify with their personal weapon...)

Besides, the problems there aren't race related.  You'll see nice pictures
on the news of cooperation between people, and you'll see tempers flare.

But this is only one city, not many major cities across the US...
and I don't see much chance that Bush can do it in four days.

No, dufuss that made the original claims will come out with an
announcement in a couple of days claiming that the coming upheavals
were 'postponed' for a month or so...  as he dodges tomatoes.

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Coverups (Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:31:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <r#cn=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 89


    [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau) writes:
    Sorry charlie,

... please spell my name correctly, thank you.  (Attempting to
belittle you opponent's argument by belittling your opponent is not a
proper technique for learned people.)

    The Watergate info I'm refering to says only that Nixon tried
    to blackmail the CIA into doing his bidding, helping him in
    his hour of need.

... what you said was that the CIA "set up" Nixon.  Now you say
something different.  Which was it?

    Your right, I was thinking of E. Howard Hunt. Have you read
    Plausible Denial? He figures heavily in this work.

... yes, I've read a number of the assassination books.  As I recall,
Mark Lane (the author) is one of the "giant conspiracy" people -- CIA,
FBI, Dallas Police, Warren Commission, Secret Service, wrong-thinking-
people, whoever-else-can-be-included.  I take such books with a large
grain of salt -- so should you.  Try reading "Final Disclosure" and
"Disinformation, Misinformation, and the Conspiracy to Kill JFK
Exposed".

    Obviously Nixion didn't get his way, but he also stopped short
    of getting himself shot too.

... this is a serious hole in your theory, and you should recognize
that.  If Nixon "had something" (implicit in your assertion that he
tried "blackmail") on the evil CIA, then whether he was president or
not, he could not be allowed to live.  Booting him out of the White
House doesn't change anything, in that regard.  If the Agency let
Nixon down, they would expect him (if he "had something" on them) to
use it for revenge; so they'd have to kill him.

    Most people in the US don't realize the amount of propaganda
    we're exposed to in this country; but the Europeans understand
    it pretty well.

... ah, so we're to *that*, eh?  "You Americans are so naive", and all
that.  That's the last refuge of someone who has no facts to back him
up...  The idea that the US government gives out more propoganda than
European ones (since you used that example) is just plain wrong.
Americans don't trust their government.  That's a fact, and its been a
fact pretty much for the entirety of our history.  If many people
don't see things the way you do, that's another matter.  (Believing
that people who don't think your way are all stupid or evil is a trap,
and I recommend you stay out of it.)


    Ultimately, what the WASP ruling class of the Western world
    has failed to do is raise it's spirtual evolvement to the same
    rate of expansion as that of the technological advancement
    that is going on.  And that leads to imbalance, and ultimate
    downfall.

... to expect spiritual advancement to occur at the same rate as
technological advancement is absurd.  Technological progress is
geometric, since people are creating new devices and technologies all
the time; building on each other's work.  Spiritual progress happens
one person at a time, and must be built up "from scratch" in each
person.  ("Spiritual advancement" is not necessarily the same thing as
"thinking just like Jeff does", you know. :-)

    Rome lasted 2000 years; so far all great empires have self-
    destructed.

... well, if we are generous, the Roman Empire lasted from 264BC
(beginning of the Punic Wars) to 1453 (fall of Byzantium).  That's
only a little over 1700 years (if the extra 300 years seem like a
trifle, I suggest you try and live that long and see).  But the Roman
Empire really begins in 27BC (Octavian) to 476 (last western Emperor
deposed).  The eastern (or more correctly "Byzantine" empire lasted
from 395 (first non-cooperating division of the empire) to 1453 (fall
of Constantinople), or 1350 or so.  Please try to be more accurate, it
will help your case; tossing around numbers for bombast doesn't.  But
I digress...

    I see little reason to believe that we don't face
    the same destiny sooner or later.

   I can't quite figure out what this apocalyptic is intended for, or
how it bolsters (or impinges in any way upon) your argument.  (An
empire may fall, but the culture survive - the British are an example;
or evolve - the Japanese are an example).

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!ukma!cs.widener.edu!batman!music
From: [e-mail] (Steve Heller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?
Message-ID: <music.715043749@batman>
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:17:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: batman

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (SDSU Vigil) writes:

>   There are hypotheses that explain volcanic activity on the moon. One is that
>the moon has volcanic activity just like the Earth does, but has become
>inactive over time.
>   Another is that meteorite impact on the moon causes
>melting of surface material, and formations, effects, etc. that resemble
>traditional volcanic activity.
>   Then again, maybe the Grays forgot to make sure their camp fire was put out
>properly.

Personally, I believe these moon eruptions are the unconscious results
of the draining of Dan Quale's Psychic Zit.
--
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:Re: Are we an experiment ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:49:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 124


    [e-mail] (Chris Stapelberg) writes:
    Great letter, man, thanks!  You have raised some very good,
    logical arguments in favour of the human race.

... thanks very much!

    I make the following assumptions when I refer to us as
    "average": Consider the first spark of self-awareness (i.e.
    intelligence) on the one end of the spectrum and the most
    advanced form of (some would call it spiritual) consciousness,
    i.e the total awareness and oneness with all things, and
    almost paradoxically the lack of self-interest, on the other.


... well, perhaps.  The difficulty is that acting with the complete
awareness of the "oneness of all", one would be paralyzed.  Couldn't
eat meat or (according to whose "oneness" you like) plants, couldn't
use any energy, etc.  Lack of self-interest, taken to this limit,
means basically lack of self-awareness.  If I am part of the one, like
a cell in